Re: references Henan and Hakka

["S. L . Lee" <sllee@asiawind.com>]

Dear Dylan,

I stated that I do not agree with all the statements in the websites cited.
For instance, I do not agree that the Min people were from Zhongyuan. I
think the Min people were active in the Wu/Yue area on the east coast. I
think they are the descendants of the Liangzhu culture or a derivative of
it.

The cited websites are for one purpose : to give you a definition of what
Zhongzhou or Zhongyuan means, as you mentioned you had not heard of Hakka
people referred to as Zhongzhou or Zhongyuan people. Zhongzhou, Zhongyuan,
Zhongtu have the same meaning for central China mainly Henan and the
neighboring provinces from Shaanxi(even Gansu) to Shandong today.
Chen YunDong (Taiwan) has a book about Hakka and in one chapter he listed
some convincing examples about the similarities of Hakka dialect and ancient
Zhongyuan dialect. I think it is a quite convincing evidence.
Zhongzhou/Zhongyuan includes more than Henan but Henan is a region most
Hakka settled for some time during the migrations from the central-west, if
you read Luo Xianglin's book and agree with his theories of Hakka origin.

I can tell you what I stand:
1. I believe a multiple origin of Hakka from various subgroups of Han. I
think Hakka people were related to Yangshao culture.
2. I believe the north-south migration is part of the formation of Hakka,
but it is not the entire story.
3. Hakka certainly has incorporated She, Han, Miao, Yao, and even Xianbei,
Xiongnu by blood. But Hakka culture is basically Han/Tang culture.
4. I don't think Hakka is JUST an ethnic group orginated from the south,
otherwise they would not be called "guest" in the south.

I think we are getting back to what we discussed 3-4 years ago in the same
forum. I think you have negated all the theories/hypotheses presented. I
would be open to hear what you believe in as for the origin of Hakka, if
none of the theories proposed by these scholars is acceptable.
I am listening.

SL Lee


----- Original Message -----
From: "Dylan Sung" <dylanwhs@ukgateway.net>
To: "S. L . Lee" <sllee@asiawind.com>
Cc: "Hakka Forum" <fhakka@asiawind.com>
Sent: Saturday, January 06, 2001 12:18 PM
Subject: Re: references Henan and Hakka


> Dear Siu Leung,
>
> Thank you for letting me have some references. I am reading through them
> currently.
>
> :I just noticed in your references, there is no Chinese citation. Do you
have
> :access to a good library with Chinese collections? While I try not to
play
> :down on non-Chinese authors/scholars, as Joseph Needham wrote the best
> :encyclopedia on Chinese science and technology better than any Chinese
did,
> :I would also like to see some references from Chinese literature.
> :
> :About Zhongzhou and Henan, please see the following websites:
> :http://china-window.com/Henan_w/culture/wenwu.htm
>
> This is a general gateway to the site only.
>
> :http://china-window.com/Henan_w/culture/wenw.htm
>
> There is no mention of how Zhongzhou is another name for Hakka on this
page.
>
> :http://ccs.ncl.edu.tw/Newsletter_73/73_15.htm
>
> This does in fact have several instances of zhongzhou, but none of them
> specifically identifies zhongzhou as another term for Hakka people. The
passage
> I read is talking about the entering tone in Chinese phonology, under the
> heading 4. Jindai Yin or Recent Phonology. The paper is only a review of
> published papers on the subject of Mandarin phonology from its title "An
> Introduction to Academic Works on Mandarin Chinese Phonology in Taiwan
> 1994?1998."
>
> :http://www.sinica.edu.tw/~mingching/NEW/inewbook/stl.htm (this one is
quite
> :interesting)
>
> The passage of interest is as follows
>
> 第三章 則強調客家人與非客家人並無分野。作者用閩臺的族譜資料引證,
> 也以羅香林所使用的族譜材料舉例說明，非客家漢民的祖先是來自河南中州，
> 認為與其客家人所追尋的祖先來自河南中州，還不如說福建人更為熱衷於追尋
> 其祖先來自河南更為符合事實。
>
> This states that in Chapter 3, Hakka and non Hakka are indistinguishable.
The
> author takes Min Taiwanese genealogical records and Luo XiangLin's data
and
> finds that non Hakkas are just as likely to have come from Zhongzhou, even

> though Hakkas maintain that they are the are the real descendents from
Henan's
> Zhongzhou etc.
>
> :http://olddoc.tmc.edu.tw/chiaushin/shiuleh-1.htm
>
>
> This page also does not state that Hakka people are necessarily commonly
called
> Zhongzhou people as was the original assertion in the comments to the
slide.
>
> All of this may be confusing, since in your statement 6a, "Henan is called
> Zhongzhou (the midland) and Hakkas are often called Zhongzhou people." In
no way
> do any of these links specifically identifies Hakka people alone as being
> Zhongzhou people, and therefore, Zhongzhou is, therefore, not a general
term
> that one can use call ourselves in the narrow sense, because others can
lay
> claim to this term on the strength of their own genealogical records.
>
> Cheers,
> Dylan.
>