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Re: Hakka Genetics
: Dear Dr. Lee,
:
: I tried to send the attached message message to the Haaka forum
: on Monday (14.9.98) but it failed to appear. Then I saw your
: posting and Dylan's reply. I would also like to comment that the
: data of Zhao et al. is scientific and statistically based. Hakka
: and Cantonese share the same genetics because we migrated
: together from the central plain to the South. We started at the
: end of the tang dynasty and that is why both Hakka and Cantonese
: has the same feeling of Tangren. However, we took different
: routes and we arrived almost simultanously in Guangdong, although
: we found our homes in different regions. For example, the founder
: of family Liu (in Cantonese Lau), my ancestor Liu2 Koi1 qid5, was
: recorded to come in AD1235 as an officer in Chaozhou (then
: include also Jiayingzhou). On the other hand, most Cantonese
: report that their ancestors came in Southern Sung via Zhujixiang
: in Nanxiong. Today i am working on the comparison of hakka and
: cantonese dialect and find that they are the most similar dialects
: among the seven dialects of China. Using the basic words
: comparison method, Prof. Xu Tongqiang, a historical linguistic,
: calculated the year of separation of Hakka and Cantonese to be
: less than 700 years. Hakka got its name because they came to the
Forum Members,
A text which I bought whilst in HK last time called 漢語語音史
Chinese Phonological History, by 王力 Wang Li, (中國社會科學出版社)
ISBN 7-5004-2017-X (1985/1997) deals with the change in pronuciation
of the rhyme classes in the old type character rime dictionaries. It
summarises the the sounds in the back according to the rhyme class
and its reconstructed pronunciations according to dynastic periods.
What I found whilst looking at these is that though the development
leads ultimately to Mandain in the Qing Dynasty, we find that that in
the majority of the rhyme classes, Hakka (from my own Hong Kong
dialect) seems to match the periods ranging from Sui-Tang (581-907),
Five Dynasties (907-960), until the Song period (960-1260). It seems
that the old -ik (still seen in Cantonese) changed to -it during this
period, as seen in our Hakka dialects. Also, around the Song period,
nearly all occlusive endings -p (-b), -t (-d) and -k (-g) are listed
are similar to our Hakka dialect. From the Yuan (Mongol) period
(1260-) onwards, the rhymes map out the development of Mandarin.
>From Li's book, it seems that our present Hakka dialect has remained
fairly conservative since the Song Dynasty. Interestingly, the book
also gives reconstructions of sounds prior to the Sui-Tang eras as
well. All of these are supported with examples of poetry current at
the time. It shows that the loss of occlusive endings, and the
mutations in the nasals have always happened, and is not a recent
phenomenon.
That Cantonese itself shows it is more conservative in preserving the
endings more exactly, means that Hakka may have more recent
developments ( -ik > -it, -ing > -in). In most cases the
similarities of the two dialects show through because there are often
regular mappings between a rhyme in Hakka to that of Cantonese
including the occlusive endings above.
The similarities which can be born out through biological and
linguistic puts forth a powerful argument that the two groups, Hakka
and Cantonese, are intertwined. The split at around 700 years ago
during the Sung era may be just about right.
Cheers!
Dylan,
: Cantonese speaking region at the beginning of the Qing dynasty,
: as Dylan also said. Before that we were all Guangdongren, ethnic
: Han. Free migration between Hakka, Cantonese and Hoklo before 1600,
: or end of Ming dynasty, did not cause the people to feel that they
: changed their identity before the label was gotten much later.
: Therefore, there was no sense of Hakka before the 17th centuy, as
: Hakka did not emerged as a group with self-identity until the
: middle of Qing when they were massively rejected by Cantonese
: speakers. Hakka andCantonese are genetically and linguistically
: brothers, but that is the way how two ethnic group evolved. We can
: compare it with the history of Arabs and Hebrew, Hindi and Urdu.
: Love your enemies, and enemies can be close relatives.
:
: Yours sincerely,
: Liu Zinfad
:
:
:
:
: BASED ON GENETICS WHICH SUBGROUP OF HAN CHINESE ARE HAKKA MORE
: SIMILAR TOO?
:
: I've read several comments over the years regarding the origins of
: Hakka (Ke Jia Ren) People and lost track on the latest
news/research.
: Could we start up the discussion again. The only real documentation
: that I've personally read was based on a book by Clyde Kiang, Hakka
: and Their Taiwanese Homeland. Other opinions link the Hakka to the
: Xiongyu, Mongol, Hui, Manchu and even the Turks of Asia Minor.
Does
: anyone have access to the latest scientific theories on this
subject?
:
: DL Wong
: email: huangdr@hotmail.com
:
:
: Dear Mr. Wong,
:
: If you can read Chinese, I would like to refer you to a scientific
: paper by Zhao Tongwu et al, "Study on the Immunoglobin isomers of
: Chinese: a hypothesis of the origin of the Chinese nation." it was
: published in Yichuanxue Xuebao (Acta genetica sinica), 18(2), 1991.
: A brief summary is given as followed:
:
: 74 groups of people from 24 folks of our nation are studied for
: their Gm, Km distribution in the immunoglobin isomers. 9560
: samples of Gm (1,2,3,521) gene and 9611 samples of Km(1) gene were
: investigated. According to the Gm monomer types, genetic distances
: were calculated. The result is striking, Hakka (Han from Meixian)
: is most similar to Cantonese (Han from Canton)! The next related
: are the "she" (畬) people from Jingning (景寧), and then the Han
: people from liuzhou (Mandarin speakers).
: There are also other people from Guangdong and Guangxi who are
: quite similar to ours genes. Han people from Xiamen and Chaozhou
: (Minnan dialect speakers) are much less related to us, and instead
: they are more related to people of Jiangxi, Fujian and Zhejiang.
: But as a whole, the population of South China are joined into a
: large cluster which distinguish them from the people north of
: Yangtze.
: Therefore, the authors put forward a North-South Hypothesis.
:
: Interestringly, Hakka is genetically southern Chinese,
: indistinguishable from Cantonese, no matter you like it or not.
:
: Yours sincerely,
:
: Liu Zinfad.
: