Re: Xiongnu and Hakka

[sllee <sllee@asiawind.com>]

Max,

Thanks for your comments. I am not an anthropoligist either. I could only
give you the following evidence:

On Mon, 28 Apr 1997, Max wrote:

> Dear Mr.Lee,
> 
> I am graduate student in K-JIST, Kwangju Institute of Science and
> Technology, Korea. My hometown is Nanjing, China, and I spent 5
> years in Peking University during my undergraduate. 
> 
> Although I major in Nature Science, I am a keen lover of Chinese
> literature and history. When I happened to drop by your website,
> I was thoroughly absorbed in and couldn't stop reading untill the
> last word. interuption. However, when I came to the Origin of Hakka,
> I have some different opinions and hope you can clarify them,
> 
> 1) During Sui-Tang, Hu-Ren(Xiongnu is one of them) almost had the
> same social status as Han people. For example, there were over 10
> prime ministers(Zai-Xiang) having Hu-Ren origin on the Tang Emperial
> Court.

Well taken. 


> 2) Second, "even the word "Chinese" was derived from "Chin" (Qin)" is
> not easily acceptable. There is a possibility that this word is
> developed from "Qing"(The last dynasty). And, as we know, china with
> lower case of first letter means ceramic ware. Since chinese ceramics
> was once the best around the world and exported to many countries even
> in Europe during ancient time, it is also possible that westers take
> china as the name of Zhong-Guo and Chinese is just a derivative like
> Japanese to Japan. Well, this is just my guess and it could be reversed.

The definition of Chinese from Qin dynasty was referenced in Encyclopedia
Britannica. We don't necessarily have to believe in its authority, but the
interaction between China and the West was much earlier. Some trace
relics from Roman Empire armies in Gansu was reported. They had to address
"Chinese" and "China". They could not have stem from the word "Qing" 
hundreds of years later.

A most important clue I would say is Bei Jiang Hak (Hakka of Northern
Pearl River).  I have not yet met with one and listened to the accent, but
they are Hakka by definition. These were the decendents of soldiers from
the Qin dynasty. Xiongnu could not have been trusted to guard the southern
border that early. They were still enemy No.1 in the north during Han
dyansty. The Qin soldier later established Nan Yue kingdom, which was not
reported in the mainstream history that much. The excavation of the second
emperor of Nan Yue Kingdom is a most interesting and important
archaeologiccal event. The museum is now in Guangzhou near the Trade Fair
and the railway station. This is no comparison to Qin tomb, but it is
certainly a piece of history well worth noting. The culture was definitely
Han culture. Qin and Han tombs are abundant in Guangzhou.

> 3) Third,as you know, An Lushan was a hybrid of Turkish and Iranian 
> $)C
> but he was "%-888à+W(O" and "=ä6'8à+W(O" at the same time with tens
> of thousands of soldiers in his hand. And, Li Bai, the greatest poet,
> was born in Sui Ye, a city in +"BD'Ê45)Ú. It is very hard to say he
> was free of Hu-Ren blood. And there is no need to mention Li Yuan,
> first emperor of Tang, whose mother was a 100 percent Hu-Ren.

There is no doubt that many Hakka do indeed carry non-Han blood. The
actual "nationality" of Li Bai is still a myth. Tang's territory may have
included the area where he was born. And we do realize that many of Tang's
prominent figures are non-Han, but not necessarily Xiongnu.

If indeed Hakkas were from Xiongnu, a very puzzling question is why they
are more conservative of "Han" culture than the true Hans?

> However, my knowledge about history is quite limited and if you can
> give me more information or clarify my mistakes, I will appreciate
> and be glad to hear from you soon. 
> 
> Thank you very much. May you have a good day.
> 
> Sincerely yours
> 
> Li, Xiaojun

I have no quarm about the genetics of Hakka as a very complex one
involving many non-Han minorities, Xiongnu being a strong element. What I
have strong doubt is Hakka was a pure decendent of Xiongnu disguising as
Han. Even worse than that is the corollary to classify Hakka as
non-Chinese with no roots in China. 

SL Lee
******************************************************************************
InTechTra, Inc.      | Voice: 1-614-326-0888	| sllee@asiawind.com 
3959 Ritamarie Dr.   | Fax: 1-614-451-6453	| 
Columbus, OH 43220   | WEBsite : http://www.asiawind.com/  
******************************************************************************