Re: HGN: Hakka origin, a biological genetic p

[sllee <sllee@mail.asiawind.com>]

On Mr. Chu's msg, I have the following follow-up
SL Lee
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On Fri, 20 Sep 1996 teoh@cs.utk.edu wrote:

> >From ALBERT-C@wpogate.slu.edu Tue Sep 17 12:14:39 1996
> From: Jen-Yih Chu  <ALBERT-C@wpogate.slu.edu>
> Subject:  HGN: Hakka origin, a biological genetic p
> 
> 1) Very glad Dr. Lee is willing to discuss the issue on a less
> emotional basis and did not accuse others "to call the thief
> father", "to justify Taiwan independence and affiliation with
> Japan" etc. I hope Ekki also to use less irritated words in
> discussion. Respect others will earn the respect from others to
> you.

Mr. Chu,

Let's burry the hatchet on the misunderstanding of your first msg. We all 
learn about each other from our subsequent postings.

> 3) I read one of original articles (in English) from that
> Japanese author, it could not convince me at all his argument
> that Hakka is originated from Siong-nu. Read the original article
> is more useful than quotation from others. One of the key
> research of Lo siang-lin was based on paternal family book
> (Tsu-pu). It might not be accurate in many family.  To my
> knowledge, many "Tsu-pu" of Chu families called Chu Si their
> ancestor regardless they were Hakka, Hoklo or from northern
> China.

Well, Kiang thinks that all the Zu Pu's are fakes and unreliable. He 
thinks that the Xiongnu used that to hide their identity. I think it is 
not so easy as Zu Pu's are not only kept by Hakka. Also the proportion of 
"Hakka" must be considerably much higher than 7% of all Chinese. After 
the downfall of South Song, many Han Hakka just became Han and do not 
call themselves Hakka any more.

> 4) HLA (Human leukocyte antigen) typing is a modern useful
> method. Originally used to find the donor for bone marrow (later
> also for other) transplantaion.  It can determine how "closeness"
> the people are. In a recent survery by Dr. Chen, Shun-sheng,
> chairman of neurology of Kaoshiong Medical College, indicates the
> HLA typing of Hakka, Hoklo and Taiwanese aborigines is very
> similar. The difference between these three groups and northern
> Chinese is much more substantial. (This may be one type of the
> genetic anyalysis Kaihsu talked about in his letter). Dr. Chen
> will be in DC for neuroscience meeting next month. He probably
> will talk about his findings in a meeting there.

I think this would be interesting. How close are marriages in Taiwan within
the same ethnic group is a question.  In mainland China as I knew it,
inter-group marriage is not common enough to dilute the difference.  If the
Hakka is 7% of the population in Taiwan (according to some old statistics),
dilution should not be to the extent that the aborigines, Hoklo and Hakka are
indistinguishable. If Hakka, Hoklo and Taiwanese Aborigines are so closely
related, it would actually better support that we are all part of the
Zhonghua Minzu family. 

> 5) All human originated from Africa. Everyone's root is from
> Africa. Please respect every ethinic group. I don't think it is
> nice to look down Siong-nu using the statement to ridicule the
> Siong-nu decendents could not upring so many famous names like
> Han Yu, Wang Yang-ming and Chu Si. ( Were they Hakka? Was Hakka's
> name actually existed in those era?) 
> 
> Thank you for your attention.          Jen-yih Chu 9/17/96

I think the theory that all human originated from Africa is not indisputable
yet. Recent findings indicate that human might originate from Asia, went to
Africa and then back. This question is unsettled. I totally respect all
ethnic groups should have the ability and intelligence.  However, given 
the environment of education at the old days, with the nomadic tradition of
Xiongnu and a socially discriminated group by the Hans in Jin dynasty, it is
highly unlikely that prominent literati like Han Yu, Du Mu could appear in
Tang dynasty.  As I emphasize again, if I as a Hakka have Xiongnu blood in
myself, it is not something surprising or shameful. In fact, marriages
between two distantly related groups often result in improvement of the
genetic trait. 

BTW, the word "Hakka" was not popular until after East Jin dynasty. That 
is another hint that before Jin, they were not "Hak" but "Zu".

SL Lee 9/20/96