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 Are Toisan and Zhongsan considered Cantonese languages?
Author: Ted (---.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net)
Date:   04-10-05 22:44

My family is Toisan but I also have some Zhongsan relatives. The Cantonese they speak is somewhat different than the Hong Kong version. But, all 3 are still considered Cantonese right?
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 Re: Are Toisan and Zhongsan considered Cantonese languages?
Author: FM Liew 
Date:   04-11-05 01:41

Yes...because they all fall within the boundary of Guangdong/Guangzhou.
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 Re: Are Toisan and Zhongsan considered Cantonese languages?
Author: Eng Wai Ong (151.123.192.---)
Date:   04-11-05 02:12

Ted, Toisanese and Zhongsanese are cantonese because they are linguistically similar to Cantonese. The georgraphy situation of these two places are irrelevant. For example, many Hakka places are in Guang Dong, but Hakka is linguistically different language.

As you have said yourself, the cantonese they speak are "somewhat" different from the Hong Kong version. It is not totally different, they are dialects of the same language. You can still understand their cantonese.

I work with many Toishanese. With my very limited Cantonese, I still can converse quite freely with them.

Eng Wai
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 Re: Are Toisan and Zhongsan considered Cantonese languages?
Author: de Fake Canuck 
Date:   04-19-05 13:16

I don't know much about the Zhongsan (zhongshan) dialect, but I am a toisan myself. I do believe toisan is a sub-dialect of the Guangdong Hua, not necessarily a sub-set of the so-called Cantonese. There are similarities between Cantonese and toisan hwa but there are more differences. toisan is actually more concise in certain expressions. For example, we only have one single word/sound for "we", "you (plural), "they" while Cantonese need the "dei" at the end to denote plurality.

de Fake Canuck
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 Re: Are Toisan and Zhongsan considered Cantonese languages?
Author: kang 
Date:   08-05-05 08:22

Hong kong cantonese have evolved. They tend to speak faster and more sarcastic and twist around all due to their fast life. Like English, Malaysians and Singaporeans speak faster than their western counterparts such that they are unable to understand what they say.

harry
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 Re: Are Toisan and Zhongsan considered Cantonese languages?
Author: FM Liew 
Date:   08-05-05 13:48

Correction...

Singaporean speaks pidgin[ Pigeon ] English.
It's a crossed between English and some Chinese dialects.

Singaporean speak pidgin English with shorter vowel, as a result the sentences have shorten and make it sound speedier.
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 Re: Are Toisan and Zhongsan considered Cantonese languages?
Author: Tom Bombadil 
Date:   08-06-05 10:10


I thought Singaporeans speak "Singlish", English, sometimes good English, with flavourings of various Chinese dialects and sometimes Malay, and the distinctive "lah" for further emphasis. Malaysians speak almost the same way. We can always pick a Malaysian or Singaporean from the crowd.
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 Re: Are Toisan and Zhongsan considered Cantonese languages?
Author: FM Liew 
Date:   08-07-05 09:34

Yes, that as well..in a unique sense.

They are categorised under pidgin.

pidg·in (pjn)
n.
A simplified form of speech that is usually a mixture of two or more languages, has a rudimentary grammar and vocabulary, is used for communication between groups speaking different languages, and is not spoken as a first or native language. Also called contact language.
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 Re: Are Toisan and Zhongsan considered Cantonese languages?
Author: mélodie 
Date:   08-07-05 11:35

"Hong kong cantonese have evolved. They tend to speak faster and more sarcastic and twist around all due to their fast life."

yes, Hong kong cantonese have evolved .however, as far as i concerned , they do not tend to speak faster but slower than general Guangdong cantonese. my uncle , who and his family are living in Hongkong for more than 20 years. when they came back to mainland, they said the mainland people speak fast cantonese.

but on the other hand, i feel that Hong kong do speak more sarcasticly. i met several Hongkong teenages in my high school and they never bad-mouth others directly. they master the language so well that they can tease and critisize people nicely.

by the way, this is only my narrow sight of view and not being discrimination.
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 Re: Are Toisan and Zhongsan considered Cantonese languages?
Author: Cora 
Date:   08-15-05 09:22

I would like to get back to the orignal topic that if Toisan and Zhangsan dialect are cantonese. Myself is from Foshan, Guangdong, and I speak cantonese. I never feel toisan and zhangshan dialct are cantonese....cos I can't understand them.. I will say they are both dialect from Canton (Guangdong) people only.
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 Re: Are Toisan and Zhongsan considered Cantonese languages?
Author: SL Lee 
Date:   08-15-05 10:41

Toisan (Taishan) and Zhongshan dialects are two of the some 50 dialects of the Pearl River delta. These were likely ancient dialects carried to Guangdong by migrants from mid China as well as local dialects of the Yue people indigenous to the region.

They are assimilated with each other, so you can understand some of the words, but each carries a different tone rule and pronunciation that requires some adjustment. It is a very intersting phenomenon of cultural evolution. There is a book on the 50 dialects comparing the pronunciation of common words.

Cantonese spoken in Guangzhou is considered a standard. However, once you step out of the city, you will hear different variants of Nanhai, Dongguan, Taishan, Shunde, Zhongshan..... in addition to Hakka and Chaozhou that are more remote sister dialects.

--------------

SL Lee
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 Re: Are Toisan and Zhongsan considered Cantonese languages?
Author: Gee 
Date:   09-02-05 15:50

Do you know the name of the book?

Do you know of any books(preferably in English) which discuss the origin of the Chinese language and the different dialects?
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 Re: Are Toisan and Zhongsan considered Cantonese languages?
Author: mélodie 
Date:   09-07-05 13:28

do you want the book in English or in Chinese ??

i guess some library would have this kind of books.



mélodie
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 Re: Are Toisan and Zhongsan considered Cantonese languages?
Author: xie chun mei 
Date:   12-04-05 07:02

hi, i'm cantonese originated from toi shan, my father was born there and came to indonesia in 1938 when japanese entered china. he speaks cantonese but different with hongkong dialect that i heard from the movie, but he can understand it. He has many friends from other guang dong region here and they always speak cantonese to each other and they can understand each other even sometimes in different dialects. I asked him once why they can understand each other even with the hongkong dialect? he said that hongkong dialect is the same with guang zhou dialect he call it "city dialect" and toi shan dialect he call it "villager dialect" but they can understand each other. For example in hongkong dialect chi fan (eating) is shek fan, in toi shan dialect is hiak fan.
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 Re: Are Toisan and Zhongsan considered Cantonese languages?
Author: Paul Yih (---.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com)
Date:   12-11-05 10:07

Some one can correct me -- I think we have over some 50 plus dialects in the province in Guangdong alone --- From Toisan to the Swatow , there and between the area lies many other different dialects -- some are close to one and another -- others it sounded totally different from one and another ... that is part of the Chinese linguistic diversity :)
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 Re: Are Toisan and Zhongsan considered Cantonese languages?
Author: mélodie 
Date:   12-12-05 12:12

i agree.
even in toishan, there are several dialects in different areas, which are slightly different. however, people can sitll understand each other. my grandpa , on my mother side, speaks toishan. i can understand him but i cannot speak. my grandma , on my father side, speaks xinhui hua, different from toishan, and it still easy for me to understand but i just don't know how to speak.
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 Re: Are Toisan and Zhongsan considered Cantonese languages?
Author: Paul Yih (---.dsl.milwwi.ameritech.net)
Date:   12-12-05 15:45

Well, those phonetic sounds will help you to handle others -- I think that is very imporant as I grew up as a child with six or seven different dialects range from Shanghai, Sichuan, Cantonese and Mandarin --- and I still t hink those early childhood days or infant days had trained my "hearing" and today I do handle a few more dialects and languages beyond Chinese and English : )
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