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 websites on the caucasoid intermingling and assimilation
Author: erwin (203.116.186.---)
Date:   12-06-01 23:01

Dear Dr Sl.lee Mak Yoon Ngan Tony Friends: I have recently came across a guide book on china and was reading on the chapter on hunan province and it came to my attention that the book had stated on the minority tribes and one of the tribe listed is the uygurs who are living in the north of hunan which is the south of china, in the colorg.org website it states that Li Bai the renowned Tang dynasty poet had blue eyes. with regards to the wife of Zhu Ge Liang, who had blond hair and black teeth, i beleiev we need to come with an open mind with regards to ethnicity as evidence of the nordic features of the Xinjiang Mummies and Dr S.L lee article on the caucasoid of the hu and xianbei tribes suggests that there was much please kindly look through these websites and decide for whether there was grater acceptance and greater acceptance of inter racial marriages before
Here are some websites which states the strong evidence of the caucasoid ancestry of the hcinese people
websites http://www.strategicnetwork.org/index.asp=loc=people
http://www.colorg.org/Meltingpot/Asia/ChineseTurkey.htm
http://uglychinese.org/uygurs.htm

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 Re: websites on the caucasoid intermingling and assimilation
Author: erwin (203.116.186.---)
Date:   12-06-01 23:19


here is another website it is at http://www.wcotc.com/facts13.htm
like asiaiwnd these are views expressed by these authors, my job is to examine the facts.

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 Re: websites on the caucasoid intermingling and assimilation
Author: erwin (203.116.186.---)
Date:   12-06-01 23:23


the website is at http://www.wcotc.com/facts/fact13.htm due ti the server you may not be able to receive it, the title of the page is the importance of race and the respence of whites n diffrent parts of the world

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 Re: websites on the caucasoid intermingling and assimilation
Author: SL Lee (---.columbus.rr.com)
Date:   12-07-01 00:01

Erwin,

Please be cautious in quoting anything from the internet. There are all sorts of misinformation out there. It is better to do some research on primary information than getting it 2nd second or nth hand. Tang poems are full of description of the interaction of Han with non-Han. There is no doubt that Han today has a lot of non-Han genes. So is the "Han" culture. The history of Han is very dynamic. As one of the recent paper indicates, Han is like a snowball keep growing bigger as it picks up all the snow down the hill.

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 Re: websites on the caucasoid intermingling and assimilation
Author: CHUNG Yoon-Ngan (---.uwa.edu.au)
Date:   12-07-01 02:30


For six years I have been in the internet and I have found out
that there are lots and lots of untruth and sensational websites out there.
I have never taken anyone of them seriously. There are lots and full of
those websites in the newsgroups. Unless I read them from a book
otherwise I'll never believe them and I have never, not even once, quoted
anything from a website. I obtained my information from books. Sometimes
I read four or five books, Chinese books of course, within a period of a month
or a few weeks. Other than Asiawind and Chinapage I do not have the time to
look at other forums.

Yoon-Ngan

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 Re: websites on the caucasoid intermingling and assimilation
Author: erwin (203.116.186.---)
Date:   12-07-01 21:17


Dear Yoon Ngan dont forget to talk ablout the black teeth and blond hair during your badmington match. i wodner how you look in blond hair and black teeth haha!as for information from the net, one can take it with a pinch of salt or come with an open mind, if there is no contradicition with established known documented facts i dotn see why it should be rejected outright,my job is to present the facts and not neecessarily endorsement of the incoherent or nascent views

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 Re: websites on the caucasoid intermingling and assimilation
Author: jim kin 
Date:   12-08-01 05:07

When I was studying in a University in USA, I ran across a bit that may interest y'all. It was in an anthropology textbook that described the Caucasian race (meaning white Asian) coming from the area around the border between China and North Korea.
They seem to have moved their camps further west as the racial characteristics seem to be now intermingling closer to the China/Russian border nowadays but this is where the first remains were to be found.
I know that my rare in USA blood type AB+ comes from Mongolia. Although, within my family it is known and documented that we intermarried with the American Indians (Pocahontas was my long ago Granny!) when my ancestors first came to America, from Scotland, in 1646, and it is thought that the blood type comes from her.
My blue eyes and red hair come from Scotland. It is thought that the lack of sunlight allows the chemical (I think it is "Maletonin" but maybe I've misspelled it) to not be so productive as it isn't needed to protect the skin and eyes from the sun (it's also the reason we wear sunglasses) as in Scotland it rains about 90% of the time.
By the way, another of my ancestors (Admiral Thomas Cassin Kincaid) agreed with as to the methods to be used and fought with Mao Tse-Tung to defeat the Japanese in WW2. We're not all like the little bush.

jimkin

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 Re: websites on the caucasoid intermingling and assimilation
Author: SL Lee (---.columbus.rr.com)
Date:   12-08-01 06:18

Bravo! Jim,

We love your posts here. Your experience as someone looking in from outside the Chinese culture (from your upbringing) is all the more beneficial to all of us. Keep posting. I enjoy your posting in Daoism and I-Jing. I will find time to write about this topic.

SL Lee

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 Re: websites on the caucasoid intermingling and assimilation
Author: Ah Xiang 
Date:   12-10-04 01:27

Erwin,

If you are a Chinese, do read my website on the Huns. If you are a wannabe or a White man, forget about it.

There are enough lies byNordic racists against China. Occasionally, I wrote a few lines to rebut it. But the poison is getting deeper and deeper. Some ignorant Chinese wannabe are echoing the lies of the dicks. Some possible Southeast Asians, Hmongs, are making a joke of themselves.

Believe it or not, after one such Hmong killed several White men one month ago in Wisconsin, I had the chance to watch the Hmong community and their spokesmen. They all appear authentic Asians, with none of them carrying creepy color.

The only creepy color will be those carried by our women, dying with Loreal.

Now back to history: Zhuge Liang's wife was a noted ugly woman with DARK skin and Yellow hair. She was not a White woman. Don't get wrong. Ancient Chinese's talk of 'yellowish' had to do with the white hair turning yellowish when people got to teh age of 80-90. You may ask how could ancient people be so long living. It was a fact. Chrnociles repeatedly talked about longevity even among barbarians: when people died at high age, family members did not cry but celebrate. Today's people had short life expectatncy due to stress and chemical contamination. Further, your talk of Xianbei's possibly related to 'white' was another dispute. I had explained via Wang ZHonghan's linking Xianbei to descendants of Bai-yi, i.e., ancient white-robed barbarians, a tradition today's Koreans still carry.

There is no trace of Nordic dicks whatsoever in ancient China. True, Ran Min had killed 200,000 Jiehu for their high nose bridge. Jiehu was merely one branch of the Huns, but the rest of Huns were just like us. That''s why history said Jiehu was sorted out by high nose bridge. High nose bridge was not equal to White men. You had seen Indians, Pakistani, and Afghanistani. They all have high nose bridge, but they are not White men. Similarly, hairy skin was not equal to White men. I had pasted a picture of teh Ainu on my website. Once you see who the Ainu aare, you understand what I mean.

I had read about some Hakka's trash talk about their group's distinctiveness. Fine with me as to that. However, for the wannabe, Hakka had nothing to do with White men, unfortunately. I had a discourse on Tanguts, Qiangs, and today's Yi-zu minority. There were extrapolations about them. Epics claimed they pasted red color onto dark face. Should they have high nose bridge, that's because they, either relatives or ancestors of Tiibetans, had historically lived in between Chinese and Xinjiang.

Please understand that our nation is having a crisis, and our people are having a crisis. Any racial wannabe action is only hurting our nation and people. I am not asking you to be a proud Chinese, but do not have doubt about your ancestry. We have a written history for thousands of years. We could turn to book, chapter,section, and paragraph for each and every description. There could be some discussions about ambiguity, but not fabricating things.

So long.

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 Re: websites on the caucasoid intermingling and assimilation
Author: FM Liew 
Date:   12-10-04 07:37

Things evolve or mutate for a simple reason; survival.

Elephant that long moved out of "African" in search of food, ended up in Siberia, evolves into a different form of elephant[ Mommoth ].

Things evolved through time.

I strongly believe this "theory of Change" applies to human as well.

We change in order to adapt to the environment.

But the ideas of human branch out from Africa is yet to be substantiated.
Because human's advancement and intelligence is very much correlated civilization. Imagine that our DNA is also a data base.

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 Re: websites on the caucasoid intermingling and assimilation
Author: Ah Xiang 
Date:   12-11-04 05:14

I have no disagreement with you as to evolution for survival. The thing that needs to be talked about is how to get China and Chinese people to survive. We were lucky to have survived as a country in comparison with American Indians or Australian aboriginals. In one sense, all peoples of Asia should thank Chinese for the peripheral influence as an entity that had kept the Europeans away for centuries. We certainly could not take credit for all, and I will say both the Ottoman Empire and Chinese country, being a "worm with hundred legs", were hard to kill. Our countrymen need to know that this LUCK won't last forever. Take a look at the cluster bombs that were droping on Iraqi, you would know our people will die like ants in the next confrontation. Worse than this possible scenario is our nation's demise in spirits that is happening now.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fallacies as to "Dr S.L lee article on the caucasoid of the hu and xianbei tribes "
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This guy, SL Lee, had provided fodder to the "Nordic racists" by speculating on the non-Mongoloid origin of ancient Chinese or presence in ancient China. I read maybe two more Hakka folks talking about similar stuff, with one such guy listing dozens of pictures of Chinese on basis of straight or slanted eyebrows and making judgment of their 'racially superior origin' by means of straight eyebrow ...

This guy claimed that Chinese word 'Huang' in 'Huangdi' was composed of 'Bai' [white] and 'Wang' [king]. What this guy does NOT know is that things are relative. Skin color is relative, too. When you compare northerner with southerner, you see the diff. When you compare Chinese and Tibetans, you see the diff. People in Xinjiang, Afghanistan and Pakistan have relatively darker skin, the same way as Tibetans: Because they live on higher grounds, and because they live next to the desert. So, the ancient designation of 'white king' for huang was relative, too, and could be relative to dark-skined ancestors of Tibetans.

Back to Zhuge Liang's wife. Ancient Chinese called brownish as 'yellow'. Zhuge Liang wife's father was a noted scholar. The story of marrying his daughter to Zhuge Liang was well known. History said clearly that Zhuge Liang married the woman for the woman's knowledge though she was dark skinned and carried 'yellow' [i.e., brownish] hair.

Our birth marks are easy to discern. When we were born, we had Mongolian birth mark on our hips. Our toes, i.e., the small toes, have split toe nail. In contrast, you could tell the diff in White men by judging on the jaw. Their jaw had a central divider. We don't need to go into hair or skin at all. (I do have puzzle as to possible genetic mutation, as represented in the case of Sun Quan of Three Kingdoms time period. But I never saw any record as to Tang poet Li Pai.)

By the way, I have doubts about this guy who spread rumors everwhere, including
Caucasoid Descent
http://www.russia.com/forums/showthread.php3?threadid=3403
a thread that was supposedly started by a Hmong, i.e., Miao-ren in Chinese who live in Laos.

I have a suspicion that it was a fake dick who was and is trying to bring out a Nordic agenda. In fact, there is a Nordic website who kept on spreading his lies oever and over, and kept on deleteing my rebutal.

To know more about Hmong, go to http://www.duluthsuperior.com/mld/duluthsuperior/news/politics/10272312.htm

------------------------------

In the following, I will paste some of my studies

Rong's Possible Link To Qiangic People
Shallow-minded and opportunist Chinese, who never hesitated to be a traitor since the Opium War of 1839-42, had speculated a purported link to non-Mongoloid on basis of incomplete analysis of Linzi DNA on the tomb remains of people living in Shandong Peninsula 2500-3000 years ago. Such racial demeaning approach led to claims that ancient Rong-di people were non-Mongoloid or that ancient Chang-di barbarian & Zhongshan-guo people were non-Mongoloid. A thorough perusal of ancient history only leads to one conclusion, i.e., ancient Rong-di people and their offsprings were ancestors of today's Tibetans. http://mbe.oupjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/20/2/214 carried an article about the new research paper by Society for Molecular Biology and Evolution, claiming that "The reanalysis of two previously published ancient mtDNA population data sets from Linzi (same province) then indicates that the ancient populations had features in common with the modern populations from south China rather than any specific affinity to the European mtDNA pool". (Prof Wei Chu-Hsien, in China & America, had research into 'bat cave' drawings on Taiwan Island and concluded that ancient Taiwan aboriginals had migrated there from coastal China.)


http://www.uglychinese.org/hun.htm#White-yi

</a><!-- -->
Emperor Fu Jian of Anterior Qin Dynasty (AD 351-394) called the Xianbei rebels 'Bai Lu', namely, light-skinned enemies.
Historians, including Cai Dongfan, speculated that Xianbei, whose ancestors fled to Manchuria under the Hunnic attack, might have possessed lighter skin; and a Japanese historian, who compiled China's 25 chronicles into commonly-readable series, had also pointed out that Jinn Dynasty wealthy in northern China liked to buy Xianbei women as concubines for the height.
Having interpreted "Huangxu-nu of Xianbei" as "yellow-haired slave of the Xianbei nomads", I would conclude that <b>Xianbei 'Bai Lu' could merely mean white-colored clothing people by adopting Scholar Wang Zhonghan's linkage of ancient
Bai-yi [White Yi] subgroup of Dong-yi [Eastern Yi] barbarians</a> to the tribal custom of wearing white-colored clothes.</b> In deed, today's Koreans, i.e., kinsmen of the Tungunzic Dong Hu, still had a tradition of wearing white robe.
(Corroborating factor would be: In the eyes of the Qiang1/Di1 people, northerners like Xianbei might possess lighter skin. Today's Tibetans and Qiangs in Sichuan do possess darker-complexions. Using modern science, we could attribute the shade difference among southern and northern Mongolians to different levels of unltra-violet exposure.)

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 Re: websites on the caucasoid intermingling and assimilation
Author: Bobo Huang 
Date:   12-12-04 23:03


Three methods are generally used to track human racial relationship- genetics, linguistics, and anthropological. The latter used to rely on morphological characteristics and culture, and is the least accurate. Languages and their lineages are not too bad but they could not account for ethnic or racial interbreeding. Genetics is by far the most reliable. There is wealth of information on the net regarding the genetic basis and diversity of nearly all the races of the world. They are based on the genetic markers.
The opinion of most geneticists at this time is there are 3 major races: African,European and Asian. It is debatable at this stage where to put the (Australian) aborigines and the Melanesian! In terms of lineage, it starts from African-European-Asian. That is Europeans are actually more related to the Africans than Asians. Of the Asians, it is subdivided into North and South Asian. Northern Asian like Northern Chinese, Korean, Japanese, etc are more related to each other. South Asian includes most Southern Chinese and all South East Asian. They all have specific genetic markers. I am afraid neither carry European genetics markers.
The lies perpetuated are based on ignorance of genetics!

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 Re: websites on the caucasoid intermingling and assimilation
Author: Ah Xiang 
Date:   12-13-04 00:05

Bobo,

I am going to take care of those lies spread by quite some obscure-origin Hakka people as well as dubious-origin postings by people who claimed to be 'Hmong' or mixed origin.

I will do it one by one in the coming weeks by taking advantage of Holiday slacks.

I had rebutted some "Nordic racist website" few times, but each time I posted the rebuttal, it was deleted by the Nordic dick.

My rebuttal at russian.com could be seen at http://www.russia.com/forums/showthread.php3?threadid=3403

I am now working on the website at http://www.dragonlink.co.uk/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=282453


Ah Xiang

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 Re: websites on the caucasoid intermingling and assimilation
Author: Bobo Huang 
Date:   12-14-04 02:14

Ah Xiang,

I admire your courage to take on the (Aryan) racial supremacists. I prefer to leave them alone. Like all extremists, especially religious and racial fanatical types, they are all so closed minded that they cannot understand or possess rational thoughts. Of course, these fanatics usually expose themselves and inadvertently make themselves known. The most dangerous ones are those who mask themselves as liberals but are actually apologists for the fundamentalists (like those in russia.com per your reference.) I like your rebuttal, as my knowledge in Chinese (population) history is limited.
There are many articles, which touch on the genetics of Chinese. I have read some of them- they are not easy to read and understand, especially since I dont have a firm background in biological sciences. The statistics and technical details are sometimes overwhelming. I hope Ill have some time further down the track to study more genetics and be a bit of assistance to analyse material from a genetic perspective. It is not 100 % conclusive but at least DNA results are the most credible.
From the titles and abstracts, a few universities in China also put up some articles on Chinese genetics (translations). I have not read them, as they are way too expensive for me to subscribe.

BBH

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 Re: websites on the caucasoid intermingling and assimilation
Author: Ah Xiang 
Date:   12-14-04 23:45

Wang Li's erroneous DNA analysis on Shandong remains had provided fodder to them. The Obscure Hakka and mixed origin people had also formented the rumors.

While we had this discussion, the dick sent me a notice about his forum. If you go there and take a look, you would see his ramblings. He is using some freaky language, not sure Swedish or Danish or something else. Whatever I had rebutted had been deleted by him. Could no longer figure out what the "respond" button was.


http://forums.delphiforums.com/ancientnordics/


The absurdities include the following topics:

Caucasoids in China, Kazakhstan [17] 7-lug
Chinese Nordicists Celebrate Blonds [4] 18-lug
Tocharian Influence on China [3] 6-lug
Caucasoid Genes in Modern China [2] 6-lug
Indo-European Words Borrowed by Chinese [2] 6-lug
Western Origins of Chinese Civilization [2] 6-lug
Nordics in China [2] 6-lug
Ancient Europeans Central China [3] 6-lug
First Chinese Emperor White? [1] 09/05/2004
White People Created China's Age of Jade [2] 25/02/2004
Karlgren Deciphers Archaic Chinese [1] 07/12/2003
Amazing Similarities: Latvian-Sanskrit [1] 01/12/2003
Amazing Similarity: Lithuanian- Sanskrit [1] 30/11/2003
Karlgren and Chinese words for Goat [1] 14/08/2003


Now when we Chinese see the ulterior motives behind the dicks, we should understand that anything that endangers our national heritage and ethnic pride should be treated seriously.

This is one way to make our people and nation strong.

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 Re: websites on the caucasoid intermingling and assimilation
Author: Bobo Huang 
Date:   12-15-04 22:56

Yes, Wang Li was wrong in his analysis.
It looks like my previous posting on the classical classification of Han Chinese is not completely right either and is now being questioned. But DNA analysis is progressing very fast and I think more recent analysis (results) tend to be more accurate, especially they now have more samples (data).
The following is the abstract and introduction of a recent genetic paper refuting Wang Li's results. This time another genetic marker(mitochrondia) was used.That is there are only "Chinese genes" in Chinese, and it also said the results are also in agreement with the historical mixing of many (ethnic?) groups to form the Han Chinese. A few other papers also come to the same conclusion.
There is no proof to the migration from South despite the paper claims so. This is actually a logical deduction because during the last major ice age (50-60,000) years ago, most human groups stay in the warmer south. There is no animals or food in the Northern areas covered up in thick glaciers.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Reconstructing the Evolutionary History of China: A Caveat About Inferences Drawn from Ancient DNA
Yong-Gang Yao,*_ Qing-Peng Kong,*_ Xiao-Yong Man,_ Hans-Jurgen Bandelt, and Ya-Ping Zhang*k
*Kunming Institute of Zoology, Chinese Academy of Sciences, Kunming, Yunnan, China; _Graduate School of the Chinese
Academy of Sciences, Beijing, China; _Taishan Medical College, Taian, Shandong, China; Fachbereich Mathematik, Universitat
Hamburg, Hamburg, Germany; and kYunnan University, Kunming, China

Abstract

The decipherment of the meager information provided by short fragments of ancient mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) is
notoriously difficult but is regarded as a most promising way toward reconstructing the past from the genetic perspective. By haplogroup-specific hypervariable segment (HVS) motif search and matching or near-matching with available modern data sets, most of the ancient mtDNAs can be tentatively assigned to haplogroups, which are often subcontinent specific.
Further typing for mtDNA haplogroup-diagnostic coding region polymorphisms, however, is indispensable for
establishing the geographic/genetic affinities of ancient samples with less ambiguity. In the present study, we sequenced a fragment (;982 bp) of the mtDNA control region in 76 Han individuals from Taian, Shandong, China, and we combined these data with previously reported samples from Zibo and Qingdao, Shandong. The reanalysis of two previously published ancient mtDNA population data sets from Linzi (same province) then indicates that the ancient populations had features in common with the modern populations from south China rather than any specific affinity to the European mtDNA pool. Our results highlight that ancient mtDNA data obtained under different sampling schemes and subject to potential contamination can easily create the impression of drastic spatiotemporal changes in the genetic structure of a regional population during the past few thousand years if inappropriate methods of data analysis are employed.

Introduction

The prehistory and recent migration history of the people of China are very complex (Ge, Wu, and Chao 1997; Yao et al. 2002a). Information provided by ancient mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA), especially from the post-Neolithic period, has been regarded as one of the most powerful methods of understanding and reconstructing the past from the genetic perspective (Oota et al. 1999). In particular, Wang et al. (2000) investigated temporal
changes in genetic structure of human populations during the past 2,500 years in China using mtDNA sequences.
In their study of a 2,500-year-old human population from Linzi, Shandong Province, China, together with a 2,000-year-old population (Oota et al. 1999) and a modern population from the same location, they employed a network method to display the phylogenetic relationship among mtDNA haplotypes and used a distance method to construct a population tree. Among the six radiation groups, designated I to VI (Oota et al. 1999), in their haplotype network, the frequencies of each radiation group varied substantially across the 2,500-year-old, the 2,000-year-old, and the modern Linzi populations. Their population tree clustered the 2,500-year-old population with the present-day Europeans, whereas the 2,000-yearold population occupied an intermediate position between modern East Asians (which contained the present-day Linzi population) and Europeans. Based on these results, they suggested that drastic spatiotemporal changes had occurred in the genetic structure of Chinese people during the past 2,500 years. Leaving potential problems of authenticity of the ancient DNAs aside, their data deserve further analyses for two reasons. First, four of their six radiation groups (I to IV) are paraphyletic (Yao et al. 2002a). Second, the reported mtDNA control region
hypervariable segment I (HVS-I) sequences were truncated to 185-bp segments for phylogenetic analysis of mtDNA haplotypes and to 172-bp segments for estimating genetic distances between populations, which would no longer permit the clear distinction between major European and East Asian mtDNA haplogroups in several cases.
A dissection of mtDNAs into major (and minor) haplogroups is essential for identifying spatial frequency patterns (Torroni et al. 2000, 2001). Thus, there are two prerequisites necessary for an interpretation of relatively short fragments of ancient mtDNA from East Asia: (1) a reliable basal phylogeny of the major East Asian mtDNA lineages based on control region and coding region information (Kivisild et al. 2002); and (2) a large database of modern East Asian mtDNA HVS-I (and HVS-II) sequences linked with partial coding region sequences, or at least single haplogroup-diagnostic sites screened by restriction fragment length polymorphism (RFLP) typing (Yao et al. 2002a). With this information at hand, one can often infer the potential haplogroup status from a short segment of the control region (which is typical for ancient DNAs) through a haplogroup-specific HVS-I motif search and matching or near-matching with the mtDNA haplotypes in the database (Yao et al. 2002a).
Until now, only two modern mtDNA samples (Zibo, with 185-bp fragments of HVS-I [Wang et al. 2000], and Qingdao, with HVS-I and HVS-II sequences and additional coding region information [Yao et al. 2002a]) from Han populations of Shandong have been analyzed for mtDNA variation. In the present study, we sequenced the mtDNA control region in 76 Han individuals from Taian, Shandong, and combined these data with the reported Zibo and Qingdao samples in order to elucidate the (matrilineal)genetic structures of contemporary populations from Shandong. Then, by contrasting the frequency distributions of the mtDNA haplogroups tentatively identified in the ancient DNAs with the modern data from Shandong as well as from other provinces of China (Oota et al. 2002; Yao et al. 2002a, 2002b; Yao and Zhang 2002 and references therein), we reassessed the conclusion of Wang et al. (2000).

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 Re: websites on the caucasoid intermingling and assimilation
Author: Bobo Huang 
Date:   12-16-04 02:17

To use light hair color (from a recessive gene/allele) as a proof of genetic relationship to Caucasian/European is quite absurd if not totally unreliable. It is actually more credible to say with dark hair (from a dominant gene/allele), most Europeans is related to Chinese, as more Europeans have higher percentage of dark hair than light hair (only 1- 20% with the latter highest in Nordic countries). Southern Europeans like Italian, Greek, Spanish, Hungarian, and even the original Celtic peoples like Scots, are/were mainly dark-haired (ie. nearly all black). Of course, none of these is true from a genetic perspective.

The children of Australian Simpson Desert Aborigines (not many true pure blood ones left) were reported by anthropologists to have the highest percentage (about 90%) of blonde hair. If this is used as an argument, then the Australian Aborigines must be the ancestors of the (Aryan/Nordic) Europeans!!! Besides, many Melanesian and Negritos of South East Asia also have light hair. Nevertheless, genetics tell a different story.

Most geneticists now agree it is almost impossible to define a human race from a genetic viewpoint. Race is defined as sub-species as all humans are from one single species. None can find a specific (racial) gene that will definitely classify a race. Ethnic/racial groups are categorised principally by their high percentages (or small or lack of) in a number of genetic markers in the DNA.

Hope this information help to clarify some of the issues.

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 Re: websites on the caucasoid intermingling and assimilation
Author: Mullion (203.78.90.---)
Date:   12-17-04 03:55

I wonder if our ultimate purpose is to evolve -
If so:
The Ancient Chinese were pointing the way with self cultivation...

Folding time might allow us to see ourselves as lower animals or low animals as higher gods. Evolution is only begun to be explored- the unexplored possibilities count more than there are stars.

War is the greatest admission of our ignorance - which includes idiocy.

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 Re: websites on the caucasoid intermingling and assimilation
Author: Ken 
Date:   12-18-04 04:38

ah xiang,

Please dont bash SL Lee, he is a very educated and articulate man. he knows a great deal on Chinese history. And yes, wether you like it or not ah there are some non-native genes among the Han. SL Lee and ancient chinese records can back this up with the great silk road of which many different races of people and cultures came in and found that the Chinese culture was so great that they stayed and assimilated. There are many details in Chinese history to prove this. The hui have non native genes and are not ashamed of it. Many different ethnic groups from the west came through the silk road, and contributated to Chinese culture by joining the Han and moving foward with the Han.

And I do agree, nordic racist seem to take shiet too far, by trying to hijack the great Chinese culture and acheivements. Which makes even me angry. But when push comes to shove, no one ever takes them seriously.

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 Re: websites on the caucasoid intermingling and assimilation
Author: Ah Xiang 
Date:   12-18-04 19:06

Ken,

I once read a bit what SL Lee wrote on his website. Believe me or not, he has UTTERLY NOTHING SOLID to back up his absurd claims. Once again, NOTHING solid to backup his claim.

Throughout his writing, he made no mention of the name, volume, chapter, and author of whatever history text to prove what he said.

In contrast, I read through China's twenty four history chronicles to find answers. If you had read what I wrote about the HUns, Turks, and Mongols, then you know I never discounted the influence and interexchange of China with people to the west and northwest. Just read

http://www.uglychinese.org/hun.htm
http://www.uglychinese.org/hsiongnu.htm
http://www.uglychinese.org/turnk.htm
http://www.uglychinese.org/uygur.htm
http://www.uglychinese.org/mongolian.htm
http://www.uglychinese.org/mongol.htm

Throughout the past years, people across the world cited my coverage of our historic heritage. Peoplle from Hungary to Mongolia had compliments for what I wrote. They have nowehere else to turn to but my site. Why? China used to possess learned scholars who worked with Jesuits in tranlating and interpreting ancient classics. But today, after several simplication of Chinese characters, not many people know how to read classics, not to mention transcribing it into Enlish.

The negative response to my website would be probably 2-3 "ultra nationalist Koreans" who wanted an independent history from China, 1-2 Central Asians who wanted the Huns to be non-Mongoloid; and one Japanese who hated my coverage of World War II at http://www.uglychinese.war.htm

Whenever I wrote, I always gave the citation. Read through my website, you would come to realize that my writings are in deed objective and barren, i.e., no hiding and no decoration.: Red is Red, and Black is Black.

Reply To This Message
 
 Re: websites on the caucasoid intermingling and assimilation
Author: Ken 
Date:   12-19-04 04:20

Ah,

SL Lee may and may not have anything solid, I have read his website and he gives out info to the best of his knowledge. There are a few and I mean few Chinese out there who are white wannabes and wanna fill china with speculations on so called "nordic blood". It is absurbed and stupid, and the most obsurded and incredibly offense people are the noric racist who want to claim chinese and china as theres and hijack chinese culture and acheivements over a few mummies found on the outskirts of china.

From what Ive read from Sl lee's post, all he wants to do is explain how Chinese culture and people were so great at accepting other cultures that they basically absorbed many different peoples and also elements of their culture. Chinese are not xenophobic like the japanese are. Dont let the nordic racist turn you away from the contributions that the so called "alien" people from the west have given to China.

Here are a few websites for you Ah.

http://www.silk-road.com/artl/tang.shtml

http://www.colorq.org/MeltingPot/Asia/ChineseTurks.htm

http://www.colorq.org/MeltingPot/Asia/ChineseWestAsians.htm

Another thing....

a quote from Pirooz who fled to china

"I am grateful to China, my new homeland." Then he looked at his immediate family and all the Persians in attendance and said: "Contribute your talents and devote it to the emperor. We are no longer Persians. We are now Chinese." Then, he died peacefully."

http://www.chinapage.com/minority/iran.html

To deny whats up above is to deny what Chinese is.

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 Re: websites on the caucasoid intermingling and assimilation
Author: Andries Zijlstra 
Date:   12-19-04 08:51

Ken,

I fully agree with you. SL Lee is a monument in this Forum and even accepted me as one of them although I'm not even Chinese. This proves that being Chinese is not the same as "feeling" Chinese. I hope and expect that all of us will continue to exchange ideas even where we disagree because the issue is not to be right or wrong but to develop mutual understanding.

Regards,
Andries

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 Re: websites on the caucasoid intermingling and assimilation
Author: CHUNG Yoon Ngan 
Date:   12-19-04 09:45

Dear Andries,

The 2nd Toronto Hakka Conference is to be held on 30-31 December 2004.
Our Administrator, Professor Dr. SL Lee, presently, is very busy preparing for the coming conference. I don't think he has the time to answer your and others posts. In fact, the orginaizers are very busy. Mr Namlow, from Hong Kong, one of the organizers has already arrived in Tronoto two weeks ago and he will stay there until the Conference is over. He was in the 19th World Hakka Convention in Ganzhou in Jiangxi province last month. Please refer to his posts about the 19th World Hakka Convention in Hakka Forum.

I have been busy too for the past few months preparing my Hakka book to be released before the Toronto Hakka Conference. Thank goodness, finally, I have submitted the manuscript of this book to the publisher and it is going to be released next week either on Tuesday or Wednesday. Will let you know the link to the preview of this book. Jane has written an article for my book. I have promised to give you and Jane each a free copy.

My book, prefaced by Dr. SL Lee, is titled:

The Hakka Chinese:
Their Origin, Folk Songs and Nursery Rhymes
Plus the English translation of the Classic book
Zeng Guang Xian Wen or The Chinese Ancient Wisdom Words.

CHUNG Yoon-Ngan
19122004

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 Re: websites on the caucasoid intermingling and assimilation
Author: Andries Zijlstra 
Date:   12-19-04 13:51

Dear Yoon-Ngan,

Thank you for your time and that you still continue to observe these issues where sometimes I feel sorrow for some negative contributions, but our mutual strength is more important than occasional undermining things. I thank you in advance for the upcoming book and of course will communicate with you and Jane about it. Be happy and if I cannot talk to you before I wish you already a Merry Christmas and a happy New Year. Strangely that I just got my pre-retirement I got several offers to start working again. It is a bit confusing because relatively young people are looking for jobs and me as an "old" guy is still in business. Maybe this is not the right place to put this but I feld that I wanted to tell you.

Please take care and have a very good time,
Andries

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 Re: websites on the caucasoid intermingling and assimilation
Author: CHUNG Yoon Ngan 
Date:   12-19-04 17:03

Dear Andries,

This is the snap shot of the opening of the 19th World Hakka Convention held in Ganzhou of Jiangxi province in China.

"Please click on Chinese Simplied to read Chinese"

The snap shot of the opening of the 19th World Hakka Convention held in
Ganzhou in Jiangxi province, China

Author: namlow (---.cpe.net.cable.roger)
Date: 12-11-04 11:46

3 singing styles for the 10 Blessing for Red Army (Hakka GanNan ShanGe):
Long March Spirit for one's journey of the life -
ʮͼt܊-
ɽ, dɽ/峪,,uL-;L:

In plain
ٲ: 峪
http://members.rogers.com/nclow3/10blessFRA1.WMV

In solo
ٲ:
http://members.rogers.com/nclow3/10blessFRA2.WMV

In disco/rock
ٲ: uL
http://members.rogers.com/nclow3/10blessFRA3.WMV


The orginal wordings in 10 Blessing for the Red Army in Chinese (JiangXi
folksong):
ʮͼt܊()

The audio file for it:
http://members.rogers.com/nclow3/10blessFRAori.wma


һ()t܊(֧)ɽ
L()꣬(֧)pdd
ɽ()Ұ¹••̖У
()ͩ~ѽ~⣬
һ•Hˣt܊
r()R(֧)ٻɽ

()t܊(֧)ɽ
ɽ()ȣ(֧)NN
(֧)t܊֣
ȰۂF˰ᣬ
ooסt܊֣t܊
µӣ(֧)t졣
ooסt܊֣t܊
µӣ(֧)t졣

()t܊(֧)^£
()ꇣ(֧)^
()܉Ӂţ
()w뺣ǣ
ǧZڸt܊
ӕ()ѣ(֧)f

()t܊(֧)嶷
()(֧)æ
ǧ܊R(֧)վ
ķ՜Iƺ
t܊ɹ(֧)wl
ƺt܊
ɹ(֧)wl

ͼt܊ϴ
茶o•IJãIJá
pp()L֣
()SBĘЦ
Ѫ֮t܊
()գ(֧)݈

ʮ()t܊(֧)ͤ
()ͤϣ(֧)̨
̨()ʮɣ
()PѽŹʣ
Ҳ΁Ҳ룬t܊
@̨()(֧)t̨

Rgds, Nam Low 

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 Re: websites on the caucasoid intermingling and assimilation
Author: Ah Xiang 
Date:   12-19-04 20:25

Ken,

I agree with you as to the interexchange between China and outside world. At http://www.uglychinese.org/turk.htm I had descriptions about the Persian prince.

What I do NOT agree with is the absurb viewpoint that unfortunately is baseless as you had concurred. Eyebrows do not make some Hakka an automatic descendant of 'Caucasoid'.

Do note that this thread, plus multiple threads across the internet, had been propogating the notion of "caucasoid intermingling and assimilation". It is psydo science at best to claim that Hakka had descended from high nose bridge people, like 200,000 Jiehu who were killed by Ran Min. I would suggest that you read Luo Xianglin's articles first.

I would find a reply I gave to a Hakka folk some time before to prove to you that the concept of Hakka is a 'REGIONAL' definition, not ethnic designation. Waves of Chinese migration from northern China had only served to treat the old dwellers as 'Tu Jia' [native dweller] who were certainly 'Ke Jia' [Hakka, i.e., guest dweller] from the prior migration. Hope you could differentiate between pride in your origin and identification with your origin.

Reply To This Message
 
 Re: websites on the caucasoid intermingling and assimilation
Author: Bobo Huang 
Date:   12-22-04 02:19

I think all these arguments on (Han) Chinese origin are avoidable. Historical records, including ethnic demographic history, are likely to be some times imprecise and inconclusive. This leads to much controversy and speculations. Paleoanthropology offers some insight and genealogy can contribute. But, as genetics and paleo-genetics can provide more accurate answers, these should be the main focus. This is not to negate others as mentioned. They are still relevant to compliment the genetic analysis.
For example, in appearance or morphologically, most of the Brazillians dont look like the Native American (Indian). Genetic analysis reveals something quite different. The indigenous mitrochrondial DNA (female lineage) contribution to the Brazillian population varies from 11% to 59%. Even in some of the upper echelon of the supposedly more homogenous Whites, it reaches as high as 33%. (Ref.1). A corollary study with DNA from the Y chromosome (male lineage) of Columbian Mestizos pointed to a figure of about 2 %.(Ref 2) This means historically it was mainly the European and to a much smaller extent African males who mated with the indigenous women to produce the current Brazillian population. It strongly indicated that, in consistent with history, large numbers of the indigenous males were enslaved and worked to death/killed. And the excess native women were taken advantage by the predominantly male European immigrants/invaders. It was also possible that the native women preferred male European for survival reasons. This contradicts the current academic apology that depopulation of the natives was the result of diseases or lack of immunity to introduced diseases. Diseases do not discriminate (whether you are male or female).

This aside, there are now enough genetic studies to answer this question about (Han) Chinese origin. Perhaps, if all the Chinese ethnic groups are to be considered, more comprehensive and representative data are needed. However, over the past few years, the Chinese genome project set up by Stanford University and several Chinese Universities (Fudan University, etc.) has done enough research to yield some results. (Ref 3)
Basically, genetic studies on Chinese, inclusive of many main ethnic groups, conclude that there are no European/Caucasoid genes in the Han Chinese. It is easier and more definite to disprove substantial Caucasoid genetic component in all Han Chinese. Also if there is any truth that there is Caucasoid origin to Chinese, then significant amount of Caucasoid mitochrondia DNA (female line) and Y chromosomal DNA (male line) has to be present in all the Han Chinese. Even in the Uyghurs, the population only possesses about 25 % identifiable Central Asian (more Turkish, not exactly European) genetic markers.( Ref 3). The rest of their genetic markers are more related to Northern Chinese/East Asian. This demonstrates that it is more plausible to make a case that there were migrations outward from central/north China rather than Central Asian infusion.(Ref 4,5)

In reality, the analysis of the genetic component of the Han and its mainly Asian minorities is more complex. This is because genetically, the Asian minorities (eg Tibetan) are more related to the Han than the Caucasian or other minorities (eg.Kazaks) that have significant amount of Central Asian genes. To track down the more closely related ethnic groups, more samples (larger number of people from each group) and genetic markers have to be analysed to reveal the minor differences. This is simply because it is harder to differentiate individuals who are more alike genetically. Besides, interbreeding over the years further compromised the differences and so complicated the picture. (Ref 4,5)

The following references used for this posting are available from website like www.genetics.org Reasonable knowledge in genetics is required to read and understand them.

Ref 1. Am. J. Hum. Genet., 67:444-461, 2000
The Ancestry of Brazilian mtDNA Lineages
Juliana Alves-Silva,1 Magda da Silva Santos,1 Pedro E. M. Guimares,1 Alessandro C. S. Ferreira,1 Hans-Jrgen Bandelt,2 Srgio D. J. Pena,1 and Vania Ferreira Prado1
1Departamento de Bioqumica e Imunologia, Universidade Federal de Minas Gerais, Belo Horizonte-MG, Brazil; and 2 Fachbereich Mathematik, Universitt Hamburg, Hamburg

Ref 2. Strong Amerind/white sex bias and a possible Sephardic contribution among the founders of a population in northwest Colombia.
Carvajal-Carmona LG, Soto ID, Pineda N, Ortiz-Barrientos D, Duque C, Ospina-Duque J, McCarthy M, Montoya P, Alvarez VM, Bedoya G, Ruiz-Linares A.
Laboratorio de Genetica Molecular, Universidad de Antioquia, Medellin, Colombia.


Ref 3. Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA
Vol. 95, pp. 1150111503, September 1998
Commentary
The Chinese Human Genome Diversity Project
L. Luca Cavalli-Sforza
Department of Genetics, Stanford University School of Medicine, Stanford, CA 94305

Ref 4. Y-Chromosome Evidence for a Northward Migration of Modern Humans into Eastern Asia during the Last Ice Age
Bing Su,1 Junhua Xiao,2 Peter Underhill,5 Ranjan Deka,7 Weiling Zhang,2 Joshua Akey,1
Wei Huang,3,4 Di Shen,1 Daru Lu,2 Jingchun Luo,2 Jiayou Chu,8 Jiazhen Tan,2 Peidong Shen,5
Ron Davis,5,6 Luca Cavalli-Sforza,5 Ranajit Chakraborty,1 Momiao Xiong,1 Ruofu Du,9
Peter Oefner,5,6 Zhu Chen,3,4 and Li Jin1,2,3
1Human Genetics Center, University of Texas-Houston, Houston; 2Morgan-Tan International Center for Life Sciences and Institute of Genetics,
Fudan University, 3National Human Genome Center at Shanghai, and 4Rui-Jin Hospital, Shanghai Second Medical University, Shanghai;
5Department of Genetics, Stanford University, and 6Stanford DNA Sequencing and Technology Center, Palo Alto; 7Department of
Environmental Health, University of Cincinnati, Cincinnati; 8Institute of Medical Biology, The Chinese Academy of Medical Sciences,
Kunming, Yunnan, China; and 9Institute of Genetics, The Chinese Academy of Sciences, Beijing


Ref 5. Genetic Structure of the Chinese Populations
1,2Lin He, 1,2YongYong Shi, 1,2XinZhi Zhao, 1,2Lan Yu, 1,2Ran Tao, 1,2JunXia Tang, 1,2Changshun Zhang, 1,2Bo Gao, 1,2Gang Chen, 1,2GuoYin Feng, 1,2YuJuan La
1Bio-X Life Science Research Center, Shanghai Jiao Tong University, 1954 Hua Shan Road, Shanghai 200030, China, 2Shanghai Research Center of Life Sciences, 320 Yue Yang Road, Chinese Academy of Sciences, Shanghai 200031, China

Reply To This Message
 
 Re: websites on the caucasoid intermingling and assimilation
Author: Ken 
Date:   12-22-04 16:28

Bobo,

There are middle eastern ancestry among "some" Chinese. Along former hubs of the silk road, some Han still exhibit indo iranian or semitic features although they no longer identify with those ethnic groups. Along the east shores many Perisans and Arab traders settled there marrying Han women, and adopting han boys into their families. In Quanzhou City some of the people there look like xinjiang people with hook type noses and and full mustaches, but have chinese faces. Some do not eat pork as to not offend their foreign ancestry.

Reply To This Message
 
 Re: websites on the caucasoid intermingling and assimilation
Author: Yellow Supremist (---.singnet.com.sg)
Date:   12-22-04 22:33

hi,

i have heard it somewhere that all Han Chinese have a slight scar (mark) on the top portion of their rear forearms, ie near the rear elbow (dunno what that area is called).

for me, i do have it. as for my mom who has cantonese ancestry, she doesn't. it could be due to intermingling of han chinese with the "barbarians", since guangzhou has a large population of minorities.

is this true?

Reply To This Message
 
 Re: websites on the caucasoid intermingling and assimilation
Author: Bobo Huang 
Date:   12-22-04 23:08

Ken,
Yes, what you said is true, but they are the exceptions and is a very small percentage of the 1.1 billion Han Chinese. My point refers to the original few threads that many Right-wing/racist websites(and some liberal ones too) claiming Han Chinese came from Caucasoid stock. Genetic analysis disputes this because the bulk of the Han Chinese do not have the 'Caucasoid' genes (correct term is genetic markers). Due to racial mixing, it is possible that there may be one out 10,000 Han Chinese containing a Caucasoid genetic marker. This means you have to collect DNA samples from at least 50,000 Han Chinese spread all over the country to obtain representive samples. That's why I said more samples and analysis are needed. Actually it is unecessary because they have collected and analysed more than a thousand Han Chinese and detected no Caucasoid genes. So if these Caucasoid genes are there, they thus would be likely below 1 in 1000. So the Caucasian origin of Han Chinese, Hmong, etc have no genetic basis. Even for the Uyghurs, they strictly can't claim Central Asian origin with their 25 % genetic lineage. They may be able to claim patrilineage if their y genetic marker is predominantly the Central Asian type.
For paleo-genetics, if they are insufficient samples of old skeletal remains, the results have to be analysed very carefully. If by chance, a dead person (said 2500 years back)with Caucasoid genes was preserved and found, the results from DNA analysis of its remains cannot be generalised to the bulk of the population or descendents.

Reply To This Message
 
 I had rebutted the absurd postings in half a dozen websites
Author: Ah Xiang 
Date:   12-23-04 00:00

Mr Huang,

Your genetic analysis is right on. As to the exceptions Ken and you discussed, we would need to tell them that for 2300 years, Indian buddhists, who had high nose bridge, had been coming to China continuously.

I had spent two precious hours in rebutting the absurd viewpoints spread by ill-intended surrogates of "Nordic supremacists" at the following websites. Note the timestamp, and you could tell they were probably be crafted by the same person or his surrogates.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1056341/posts?page=35 http://forum.skadi.net/showthread.php?threadid=14123 http://forums.delphiforums.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=ancientnordics&msg=20.18 http://www.russia.com/forums/showthread.php3?postid=260640#post260640
Did not have a chance to post at
http://www.colorq.org/PetSins/article.asp?y=2003&m=9&x=9_1
Forgot the password at
http://www.indolink.com/Forum/Arts-Culture/messages/3049.html

There could be more websites out there. Just have no time to go over it. Hope what we did here could somehow straighten out the facts.

[ In order to create a "live-link", please insert the url between brackets like this <url>. - Moderator ]

Reply To This Message
 
 Re: I had rebutted the absurd postings in half a dozen websites
Author: Sun 
Date:   12-23-04 03:20

.the image of Fuxi, or the sun god in ancient China, and images of high-nosed and hollow-eyed people, from a tomb of the Eastern Han Dynasty (25 A.D.-220 A.D.)???

That is obviously images of people from Persia, another high culture from that period.

It is unlikely that they are of Nordic origin, as Europe was still in the iron age era.

A Dr. Cress Welsing theorises that whites (as the albino offspring of Black Africans) migrated or were chased northward from Africa into Europe.

(see site at: http://www.ibiblio.org/nge/blacked/bl7.html )

White skin is a form of albinism. It appears that whites have "come into being" through a number of ways: In The Isis Papers p123, Dr. Welsing states "whites are undoubtedly a genetic mutant albino population... from the original Black (hue-man) beings."

The story of 'Snowflake' dramatically illustrates how it is possible for whites to come into being from blacks: Born of coal black parents, this albino gorilla named "Snowflake" has platinum blond hair, white (pink) skin, and blue eyes! (National Geographic: Mar, 67, Oct. 70).

In the Bible, Edomites are whites that descended from an albino named Essau who was born ruddy (red) & hairy. (Gen. 25:25) The Bible refers to white skin as leprosy (Num. 12:10-12, Lev. 13) and reports that a race of people (Gahazites) were born white due to being cursed! (II Kings 5:27) Bible scholars credit Japheth (a son of Noah) as fathering a (Black) people who settled in the north, ultimately becoming the Caucasian race.

The ancient Egyptians recorded the Tamahu, which means created white people. Egyptian writings also refer to whites as Typhonians or People of Seth, both meaning "the devils." After these "white devils" were first released into the Black community of the Near East 6000 years ago, they caused sever strife, thus the Africans rounded them up, stripped them of
everything and exiled them to the caves and hills of the caucasus
Mountains.

Reply To This Message
 
 Re: I had rebutted the absurd postings in half a dozen websites
Author: Ken 
Date:   12-23-04 03:22

Ah,

regarding the article you posted the link to, where do you think the people on the bricks came from? Could they possibly be remenents are the Hui people? Sycthians? Or am I going way outta bounds here?

"Bricks with molded designs unearthed in Chongqing

<http://www.chinaview.cn 2004-01-12 20:52:43>

CHONGQING, Jan. 12 (Xinhuanet) -- Archaeologists in southwest China's Chongqing municipality have unearthed more than 20 pieces of brick reliefs from a tomb of the Eastern Han Dynasty (25 A.D.-220 A.D.).

Lin Bizhong, a noted archaeologist with the Chongqing MunicipalArchaeological Team, said this was the first time that bricks withmolded designs had been unearthed in Chongqing.

Previously, such tomb bricks had been excavated from Sichuan province, southwest China, and have been included as relics under state key protection.

Lin acknowledged that the brick-and-stone-structured tomb, fromwhich brick reliefs were unearthed, had been robbed, so they did not find anything valuable in the tomb besides the bricks.

Designs on the bricks include horse-drawn carriages accompaniedby honor guards, the image of Fuxi, or the sun god in ancient China, and images of high-nosed and hollow-eyed people, who might be from varied ethnic groups or foreigners.

According to experts, designs of horse-drawn carriages with honor guards indicated that the tomb owner was of high social status, bricks with the image of Fuxi were important materials forstudying religion and culture at that time, and the images of foreigners reflected cultural exchanges between the East and West in Eastern Han dynasty.

Moreover, archaeologists also found traces of red color on these bricks and held that might be traces of color painting."

Reply To This Message
 
 Eurasian genes in Han Chinese
Author: Bobo Huang 
Date:   12-23-04 22:29

Based on the article I posted on this thread earlier, it reported out of a sample of near to 1000 Han Chinese individuals, two Eurasian (Central Asian) genetic markers were detected. One from Liaoning and one from Yunan. This indicated a 0.002 proportion of Caucasoid genetic make up in the Han Chinese. Again, I like to stress that such a small fraction practically means zero in mathematical terms. Besides, this result is likely to bias high because the samples are only collected from eight regions in China and mainly outlying areas (Yunan, Xinjiang, Liaoning, etc.) where it is more probable to find non-Han genetic markers.
If similar genetic analyses are to be performed on the European population, it is likely that Asian genetic markers may be found in similar proportion or even higher as in the case of the Russians. This is especially true for Europeans who are of Asian/Central Asian origin such as the Finns, Sami, Slavs( esp. Magyars/Hungarians), Russians, Celts, etc. Nevertheless, the proportion is likely to be small and insufficient to justify claim Asian origin of Europeans, as invalid as the claim conversely.

Reply To This Message
 
 In regards to the source of absurd Caucasoid or Negroid origin matter
Author: Ah Xiang 
Date:   12-27-04 23:03

Ken, you sounded exactly like the person by the name of Blam on the other websites where the absurd claim of Hakka origin in Caucasoid was spread. And, you don't even quit even after Bobo Huang had provided you with genetical analysis. Together with my historical analysis, this Caucasoid theme should be thrown into trash bin by now.

Let me go over some of the sources for the absurd claims on basis of which you might have conjured.your ideas. See the following thread for my recent rebuttal against the other form of absurdity,i.e., Negroid Origin of Chinese

http://www.raceandhistory.com/cgi-bin/forum/webbbs_config.pl/noframes/read/1585

Both your absurd Caucasoid origin and Clyde Winters' Negroid origin have no merits.

You did not explain where you got the idea that Lao-zi was black and oily.

Prof Wei Chu-hsien did commit a fatal mistake in extrapolating on the tin decipher for the city of Wuxi ["no tin"] and polarized the Xia-Shang dynastic substitution as a fight between Mongoloid [Negroid to be in Wei's apparently blown-away alternative writing] and Caucasoid, i.e., a fallacy that scholar Luo Xianglin opposed. Do note that Wei was a student of Wang Guowei who fallaciously proposed the notion of linking 'Hua' to the Avars and 'Xia' to the Tu-huo-luo kingdom in Central Asia. Should Wei have adopted 'black fish' of the Yangtze Deta as the god of "dark-skinned" Shang people who moved to the Yellow River with the tin from Wuxi hill, then how could he reconcile the ancient claim that the father of Yu, i.e., Gun of Xia people, was named 'black fish'?

Scholar Luo Xianglin pointed out that Frenchman Terrien Lacouperie was the first to propose the fallacious claim of Babylon as the "Western Origin Of The Early Chinese Civilization" in 1894. Wang Guowei just conveniently appropriated the Frenchman's absurd idea, and his student Wei Juxian carried it on. Ultimately, you, Clyde Winters, picked it up by treating it as a dog chew.

Reply To This Message
 
 Re: Eurasian genes in Han Chinese
Author: Ah Xiang 
Date:   12-27-04 23:07

Bobo,

I had encountered a good article about the genes of all Asians as a whole.

http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v63n6/970820/970820.web.pdf

People could see that Ainus have nothing to do with the other side of the gene tree, but to do with Koreans. Koreans are mnore related to Chinese than Altai people.

Genetical analysis had nly corroborated historical records.

Reply To This Message
 
 Re: Eurasian genes in Han Chinese
Author: Ken 
Date:   12-28-04 01:46

Im not blam,

I clicked your link that you posted, and the poster above me said it might be persian. Just wondering thats all. Im not a troll.

Reply To This Message
 
 Re: Eurasian genes in Han Chinese
Author: Ken 
Date:   12-28-04 01:47

Sun clicked your link too and he said it might be persian:

Author: Sun
Date: 12-23-04 03:20

.the image of Fuxi, or the sun god in ancient China, and images of high-nosed and hollow-eyed people, from a tomb of the Eastern Han Dynasty (25 A.D.-220 A.D.)???

That is obviously images of people from Persia, another high culture from that period.

Reply To This Message
 
 Re: Eurasian genes in Han Chinese
Author: Ken 
Date:   12-28-04 01:52

And I could care less about honkey nordic genes in the Han. What I am very interested in are Hui Muslims, and the exchange of muslims with the Han, because I think persian women are very pretty. Thats why I never posted anything about nordic dick, only about mixed hui people and muslim genes among Han.

Reply To This Message
 
 There is NO Eurasian genes in Han Chinese
Author: Ah Xiang 
Date:   12-28-04 21:33

http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v63n6/970820/970820.web.pdf
People could see that Ainus have nothing to do with the other side of the gene tree, but to do with Koreans. Koreans are mnore related to Chinese than Altai people. Mongols are close to Chinese.

The westward you go, the more East Asian gene you will see. Genetical analysis had only corroborated historical records. It shows that history was right: Huns raided to the west, Turks the same path, and the Mongols same path. Chinese genes were spread across to the west, not the other way around.

Should you claim that those Hui Chinese, i.e., Dungans, were non-Chinese simply because they believed in Muslim, then we could mnake a similar absurb claim that all those Asians who believed in Buddhism are Indian Indians.

You mixed up religion with race.

And, you make another blunder: Your likeing Persian women is not the underpinning to make you think you were the descendants of Persians, not to mention the absurdity as to straight eyebrows or nose bridge.

And, your friend 'Sun' is no authority on anything since what he pasted about Fuxi had no academic, anthropological or archaeological bearing.

Lastly, don't forget this thread is still under the creep subject as to "the caucasoid intermingling and assimilation "

Your ancestors would curse you for identifying someone else as "zu zong".

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 Re: Eurasian genes in Han Chinese
Author: Bobo Huang 
Date:   12-29-04 22:55

Ah Xiang,
Thanks for bringing this up, though I have read it quite a while back. Yes, the Ainus are more related to the current Japanese. There are articles that put forward the notion that they may be the original Jomon people.
I hope more genetic analysis will be performed on the Ainus. There are few pure-blood Ainus left and genetic analysis can carry more errors if the sampling is inadequate on mixed blood descendents. Also, as most of the geneticists who performed the analysis are Japanese, I hope they are not bias in their interpretation of results (Sorry for being slightly skeptical here because the Japanese have been suppressing the Ainus rather harshly for several hundred years. And knowing the nationalistic fervour of the Japanese......).

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 Overblown issue on the role of Silk Road - Zhang Qian's note on trade via India
Author: Ah Xiang 
Date:   01-03-05 21:31

Hope you had a great holiday.

Yesterday, some professor working on translating ancient classics emailed me. He is interested in Silk Road, and asked me to read some book on Chinese Muslims. I had written a few words and replied to him. I will just do a convenient paste below

----------------------------------

Reply to some professor by the name of Joe in Australia:

The writings on Huns, Turks & Mongols were mostly workings 2-3 years ago Recently, I had added a few paragraphs to prehistory, & Xia Shang dynasties, mostly for sake of diffusing an ongoing propoganda of slamming Chinese civilization via a digging-in of the mummies in Chinese Turkistan.

As to the Silk Road, I want to offer some points for you to construe my thinkings. I fully understand the role played by the Silk Road in history. However, there were at least two more roads that could have more important roles than Silk Road 2000 years ago. We called "Zhang Qian's Trip To Central Asia" in 138 BC, http://www.uglychinese.org/hun.htm#ZhangQian as something "opening up the vacuum". Why so? Zhang Qian was the first government official who was sent on a mission to the West though Chinese classics had descriptions of remote lands even earlier, which were most likely acts by individual travellers or merchants, other than Zhou King Muwang's rondevous wuth Queen Mother of the West on Mt Kunlun. However, Zhang Qian informed us that he saw in Afghanistan some Chinese bamboo products that locals said were shipped over from India. It proved that the route through Southwestern China was more feasible and practical than the Silk Road across the Deserts.

Certainly, we know the sea routes also existed between Rome and China, by which the silk had actually been shipped rather than via the more precarious land of conflicting statelests and tribes. When General Li Guangli campaigned against Dawan (Kokand?, Fergana Valley) in 104 BC, he lost majority of tens of thousands of troops on the first try, and had to return with less than 20% of the forces in about 2 years timeframe. The Silk Road was not even something the Tang Chinese could manage initially. If you had read the records of Tang Monk Xuanzhuang, you would understand why he almost died in desert due to lack of water and oasis. Monk Xuanzang's accounts clearly pointed out that along the deseat road was piles of skeletons. Even after he passed the desert, he still had to face raiding banditry once a while.

People who claimed nomadic propogation of horse and cavalry would propose a northern belt route. Should we read Chinese records, then we often encountered passages like the nomads losing 6-7 out of 10 people and cattle during some storms. Even Zhizhi Chanyu Huns had lost quite some of their fighters during the relocation to Kang-ju territory. While Zhizhi Chanyu stationed in Jiankun territory, Kangju (Sogdia) king intended to attack the Wusun Statelet with the Hunnic assistance. Kangju (Sogdia) king sent an emissary to Zhizhi, with a gift of several thousands of camels and horses. On the way to Kangju (Sogdia), Zhizhi Chanyu lost quite some people due to cold weather. About 3000 remnants arrived in Kangju territory for tha alliance. So, you could tell it was never a freidnly environment on the steppe, and it is hard to construe any trade between the West and East. In contrast, hsitorical Chinese records points to Chinese Trukistan as the source of jade and diamond, not to mention horses.

An incidental word about Chinese Muslims. This is in regards to your request for me to take a look at 'Muslim in China'(in Han) by Ma Zh'h Pe. I understand that Northwestern and Western China had been the sphere of Islam. A similar propoganda going on in regards to Chinese Muslims would be to claim that those people were descendants of Arabs, Persians or Jews. It really shows the complexity of the issue since the three groups of people, as we know, had totally different religious origins. This claim, like the mummies, had made the water muddy, and led to the acknoledgement of some Chinese Muslims that they were not Chinese at all. This issomething academics need to set it right while researching into this area. I once read Sidney Shapiro's writing. I did not deny the existence of Central Asians or Muslims of Central Asia origin in history; however, their presence inside of China would be limited to a few outposts on the frontier, or some posts in garrison cities, or some ghetto in commercial centers. As to Chinese muslims, a good history would be shown at http://www.china.org.cn/english/2003/Aug/72893.htm

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 Re: websites on the caucasoid intermingling and assimilation
Author: Paul Yih (---.mad.wi.charter.com)
Date:   01-06-05 16:20

Mullion, absolutely ,no one or nothing can remaind stale forever - evolution is the best kind of natural revolution -- we change, we mutate with time and with the changing conditions.

In reading GW Tree's post on the Han Chinese living amongst the Mongols where I have learned the entire clan systme of the wolves and why the Mongols will look down on the other agrarain mongols when they put Wolf fur on them -- Because for most of the Mongolians, Wolf is their diety , their god, they are ferocious, they are group hunters, organizers -- while the Mongolians hunt htem down periodically and young Mongolians capture young wolves to display courage -- Mongolians hold Wolves at high esteem and see the wolves killing of the herds, or even so called "yellow sheeps" in the wild is a necessity -- Interesting enough, because the urine left behind by these so called "yellow sheeps" on to the grass where the human herds and sheep will not graze. Thus, that checks and blance of hte nature ensured and praticing by the Mongolians -- creating a perfect balance ----- even in their burial -- they just put on the corposes of their elder onto the cart and ride into the open field and let the body dropped where they might --- and later on the wolves will devour them --- again, that check and balance ---.

But the most unique feature where I have read this book, posted by GW Tree entire onthe web-- in that one segment, phonetically, in the god of the Mongolians where I read htem as "Tanka" --- is this not the same Tanka we called by the Lakotas or the natives tribes in and near the West side of the Mississippi river ? There is a toy company of trucks called "Tanka" -- can it be the god of the mongols and also god of the native in America?

We will evolve -- as I have said, we will be Homo Intelligensia, some are still homo anus --- regressing to become the old reptilian--- still trying shake off their tails -- I see Bush is one of those reptilian wanna be :) or his entire cabinet or even the congress ..:)

GW Tree's "Wolf Totem" book ought to be translated immediately into English and I see where National Geographic and many biologists or wolf enthusiasts will find that book as a valid documentary of the evidence and activities between Mongolians and their god -- the Wolf clan offers great value to all.

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