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 why did we call ourself (Chinese) Hans?
Author: Danny Lu 
Date:   10-23-03 11:27

Hello all,
I am just wondering... why did we (Chinese) called ourselves Hans, not Qins, Xias, Shangs, Zhous (I know some Cantonese calls themselves Tangs). Is there any historical reason? Please enlighten me. Your help will be greatly appreciated.



Dan

=======
"I dis

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 Re: why did we call ourself (Chinese) Hans?
Author: sima 
Date:   10-23-03 16:30

it is the first peroid where the united chinese enjoyed prosperity and freedom.

the first 3 laws of han dynasty states only people who kill, steal or rape are punshed to deaty by the government

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 Re: why did we call ourself (Chinese) Hans?
Author: enigma 
Date:   10-27-03 19:20

The term "Han" was used to describe the Chinese nationality by the ancient Chinese from the Han Dynasty (206BC - 220AD) onwards. The reason why the name of this dynasty is choosen rather than the other dynasties is because the Han Dynasty was among the most powerful and influential in ancient China. It was also the dynasty during which the peoples of China, who were previously divided into various states, were unified politically, legally and culturally. (Even though the unification process began in the previous Qin Dynasty (221-206BC) that dynasty was too short-lived to have as large a lasting impression on the people as the Han did) As a result, the Han Dynasty was really the first time during which all peoples from every part of China's vast territories shared the same national identity. Prior to this they had the same cultural identity but belonged to different states.

"Tang" is also a term often used to describe the Chinese nationality as the Tang Dynasty (618 - 907 AD) was arguably the most powerful and influential dynasty in Chinese history. (Or at least as powerful as the Han) Some scholars believe that the first part of the Tang Dynasty, from the reign of the second Emperor Tang Taizong (beginning from 627AD) to the Battle of Talas River with the Islamic empire in 751AD marked not only the Golden Age of Chinese Civilisation but was also the period of time in which China was the leading civilisation of the world in almost every aspect, between the fall of Rome and the rise of Islam.

Another point of interest is that the English term "China" is not actually a Chinese word but is based on what almost every nation and civilisation to the west of China calls it. The term "China" is believed to have been derived from the Qin Dynasty, sometimes pronounced in English as "Chin Dynasty" (see the similarity between "Chin" and "China"), which united China politically for the first time in 221BC. But the use of a term based on "Qin" to refer to China predates the unification of China by at least a few centuries. This is because the state of Qin is actually very ancient and existed for several centuries before it became powerful enought to unify all of China. As the state of Qin is the westmost state in ancient China before the unification, it is this state that western traders from Persia, India or Greece encounter when they reach China. Therefore they call China by the name of the Qin state. Evidence of this can be seen in many ancient western documents which contain terms referring to China. The ancient Hebrew word for China is "Sinim". This is actually a phonetic (sound-based) translation of the term "Qin", but as there is no equal sound in Hebrew to how "Qin" is actually pronounced so the closest matching sound of "Qin" is "Sin" which then became "Sinim". The word "Sinim" is also referred to in the Bible. The term used to refer to China by the other ancient western peoples are based on the term "Sinim". The ancient Romans called China "Serre" while the ancient Greeks referred to China as "Sinnai". The modern English word "China" came from the French "Chine", which has a pronounciation similar to "Sinim" so is also derived from the same source.

In fact, Chinese people's most ancient name for our nation is the term "Xia". This name is no longer used frequently now, but it was the term used to describe the Chinese nationality almost exclusively during the 2000 years of Chinese history before the Han Dynasty. Evidence of this can be found in the Analects of Confucius (China's great sage and philosopher, Analects is a book of dialogues compiled by Confucius' students after his death). The term "Xia" is so ancient that the name for China's first dynasty, the Xia Dynasty (created around 2200BC), is named after the term "Xia" used to describe the Chinese nationality rather than the other way around. The word "Xia" is sometimes combined with the word "Hua" ("Huaren", meaning "Hua people", of course is the word used by many overseas Chinese people to describe themselves) into "Huaxia", which is a term still used quite often in China when referring to the Chinese nation. I personally believe due to the antiquity of the term "Xia" and the popularity of the term "Hua" (The Chinese name for the People's Republic of China, for example, is "Zhong Hua Re Min Gong He Guo", which contain the word "Hua", but does not contain "Han"), the term "Huaxia" is the most accurate and authetic way to call the Chinese nation, more authetic than even the "Han". Another reason for this is that "Huaxia" is more "politically correct" than "Han", as "Han" is only one of the 56 nationalities in China (albeit the largest, with 93% of China's population), so using "Han" to describe China will alienate the other 55 nationalities in China, whereas historically the Xia peoples were the ancestors of many minority nationalities in modern China as well as the Han nationality the term "Huaxia" is more inclusive of all the diverse peoples of China compared with the term "Han".

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 Re: why did we call ourself (Chinese) Hans?
Author: sima 
Date:   10-31-03 16:29

actually the roman did not make contact with the qin empire,

the only contact with the west, was the silk road
which is open by Zhang Qian during the han empire

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 Re: why did we call ourself (Chinese) Hans?
Author: enigma 
Date:   12-15-03 13:01

The Romans, Greeks and Jews did not have direct contact with the Chinese prior to the opening up of the Silk Road, that is true. However, they had some indirect knowledge of the Chinese through the Persians, which traded with the state of Qin.

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 Re: why did we call ourself (Chinese) Hans?
Author: SL Lee 
Date:   12-15-03 13:50

Theoretically, Chinese should call ourselves as Qinren because Qin was the first to unify China. However, Qin got a bad reputation from Qin Shihuangdi, as a result of the strong criticism by Han historians. That is why Chinese today are accustomed to be called Hanren. In fact, without Qin, there was no Han. Qin Shihuangdi made significant contribution to China and Chinese. Without him, China could be just like another Balkan.

In fact, the word "Chinese" and "China" probably came from "Qin" (Chine). So, in the eyes of non-Chinese, Chinese are descendents of Qin.

The other reason is Han and Tang had the territory resembling of today's China.

There is also a subtle difference between Tangren and Hanren. Tang had a lot more infusion of northern ethnic groups compared to Han. So Tangren implies a lot more diversified than Hanren.

There is another thread in Hakka forum about Yue, Nan Yue, Vietnam and Hanren. May be I should also clarify it here.

Yue kingdom, was founded in Chunqiu era and conquered by Wu. Eventually, Yue won back the kingdom. So, we usually call Zhejiang/Fujian as Wu-Yue territory. The territory of Guangdong, Guangxi, and today's Vietnam were called the territory of a Hundred Yue, as ruled by many small kingdoms. They were unified under Qin by Ren Xiao. Before the fall of Qin, Ren Xiao handed the power to Zhao Tuo, who later claimed independence from Qin. It was named Nan Yue kingdom, with capital in Guangzhou.

The county Panyu (or Fanyu) near Guangzhou was the border of Qin, and so it was named. Fan=territory, Yu=corner/border.

The tomb of the second and last king of Nan Yue is near the Guangzhou train station. It is a nice visit for anyone who like to learn more about this period of history that is seldom mentioned in the 'official history' of China. Nan Yue kingdom includes Guangdong, Guangxi, and north part of Vietnam (known as Xiangjun, a county of elephants), and probably part of Jiangxi and Fujian too. The short-lived Nan Yue kingdom was finally unified with Han.

If you know the poem of Tao Yuan Ming in Jin dynasty, he found an isolated village where people still wore Qin costumes and knew nothing about Han.

The conflict between Han and Chu ended up with Han as the winner. Otherwise, we could be calling Chinese Churen. Chu actually had a brilliant culture, which was later incorporated into Han culture. The technology in Chu (capital in Hubei) was much more sophisticated than Han.

In conclusion, Chinese in fact implies people of Qin dynasty (see Britannica). While Chinese call ourselves as Hanren or Tangren, we are far more than just descendents of Han dynasty and Tang dyansty. All Chinese are a mix of many different tribes and ethnic groups that eventually evolved into a people of an integrated culture through a period of 10,000 years if we count rice culture as the dawn of Chinese culture. There is no difference when we call ourselves Chinese, Hanren, Tangren.
--------------

SL Lee

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 Re: why did we call ourself (Chinese) Hans?
Author: enigma 
Date:   12-15-03 15:44

I still think "Hua Xia" (»ªÏÄ£© is a more accurate term to describe the Chinese people compared with "Qin", "Han" or "Tang". The history of the Chinese nation predates the Qin dynasty by some 2000 years or more. The term "Xia" is the name of the first dynasty in China (c 2200 - 1766 BC) and a verse in Confucius' Analects states: "ÒĵÒÖ®Óоý£¬²»ÈçÖîÏÄÖ®ÍöÒ²¡±. The term "Xia (ÏÄ£©¡± used here refers to the Chinese people as opposed to the barbarian (Òĵң© tribes around China in Confucius' time. So there is a longer history of using "Xia" to denote the Chinese people compared with the other terms.

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 Re: why did we call ourself (Chinese) Hans?
Author: CHUNG Yoon-Ngan 
Date:   12-15-03 16:14


They called themselves Han Ren
¥L­Ì¦ÛºÙº~¤H

In 221BC, Ying Zheng (¾Æ¬F), the King of the State of Qin (¯³°ê) subjugated all the States in the land. He established a big empire called the Qin Dynasty (¯³´Â 221BC to 207BC) and proclaimed himself the First Emperor of Qin (¯³©l¬Ó«Ò). He divided his empire into 41 Prefectures (°p). There would be no more fedual States like the preceding Dynasties. He centralized his empire and he alone controlled all the administrations in the empire.

At that time the population in the southeast coast and Ning Nan (À­«n) were the people of Yue Ren (¶V¤H). As there were so many different tribes among the Yue Ren they were being called Bai Yue Ren (¦Ê¶V¤H). They lived in the Prefectures of Nan Hai («n®ü°p present day Guangzhou ¼s¦{), Xiang Jun (¶H°p present day Vietnam Hanoi ¶V«nªe¤º), Gui Lin (®ÛªL°p present day Guangxi province in Gui Lin county ¼s¦è®ÛªL¿¤) and Min Zhong (»Ô¤¤°p present day Fuzhou in Fujian province ºÖ«ØºÖ¦{).

In order to consolidate his empire, in 214BC the First Emperor dispatched an army of 500,000 men, under the command of Tu Sui (±O¸F), to the south. The troops were divided into five army corps of 100,000 each.
(1) One army was sent to Fan Yu (µf¬ë in present day south of Guangzhou city ¼s¦{¥« Guangdong province ¼sªF¬Ù);
(2) one to Tan Cheng (ôì«° in present near Gui Lin city ®ÛªL¥« in Guangxi province ¼s¦è¬Ù),
(3) one to the present day northern part of Vietnam, which was then called Xiang Prefecture (¶H°p),
(4) one to the present day Nan Chang city in Jiangxi province («n©÷¥«, ¦¿¦è¬Ù)
(5) and one to Yu Gan (¾l¤z) near the Po Yang Hu (¾I¶§´ò) in the north of Jiangxi. province.

Before he died in 210BC the First Emperor banished convicts, army deserters, and corrupt officials to the present day provinces of Guangdong and Guangxi to live with the Bai Yue people. The First Emperor also encouraged spinsters, newly married couples and businessmen to settle in the south. The offspring of many of these newcomers were what we now call Qin Ren (¯³¤H).

Ying Hu Hai (¾Æ­J¥è) became the second Emperor of Qin (¯³¤G¬Ó«Ò). In 208BC, during the reign of the Second Emperor of Qin, the governor of Nan Hai Prefecture («n®ü°p in present day Guangzhou ¼s¦{ city in Guangdong province ¼sªF¬Ù), Ren Xiao (¥ôÄÛ), died of illness. Zhao Tuo (»¯¦ï), the officer in charge of Long Chuan (Às¤t in Guangdong province), succeeded Ren Xiao as the new governor of Nan Hai Prefecture.

The Qin Empire collapsed in 207BC. A civil war broke out between Liu Bang (¼B¨¹) and Xinag Yu (¶µ¦Ð). During the period of the civil war between Xiang Yu and Liu Bang, Zhao Tuo invaded and absorbed the Prefectures of Gui Lin (®ÛªL°p in present day Gui Lin county in Guangxi province ¼s¦è¬Ù) and Xiang (¶H°p present day Honai city ªe¤º¥« in Vietnam). Zhao Tuo unilaterally proclaimed the formation of the Nan Yue Kingdom («n¶V°ê). He declared himself the King of Nan Yue Kingdom («n¶V°ê¤ý). (NOTE: in1998 the Chinese archaeologists excavated his palace in Guangzhou city in Guangdong province). Zhao Tuo was from Zhen Ding in Hebei province (ªe¥_¯u©w¤H).

In 202BC, Liu Bang defeated Xiang Yu in the civil war. He established the Han Dynasty (º~´Â 207BC to 220AD) and he was crowned as Emperor Gao Zu (°ª¯ª) In 196BC Liu Bang sent an official Lu Gu (³°¸ë) as ambassador to the Kingdom of Nan Yue. Since Zhao Tuo did not want in antagonize with such a mighty empire as the Han Empire, he accepted Lu Gu gracefully as the representative of Liu Bang. Liu Bang bestowed upon Zhao Tuo the title of King of the Nan Yue Kingdom and in return Zhao Tuo agreed to accept that his Kingdom was under the jurisdiction of the Han Empire.

Liu Bang died in April 195BC and was succeeded by his son Liu Ying (¼B¬Õ). After the death of Liu Bang, Liu Bang's wife Empress Gao (°ª¦Z) advised the Han Court to stop selling iron to Zhao Tuo. When the Han Court complied with her idea Zhao Tuo was furious. Zhao Tuo suspected that the plan for not selling him the iron was devised by the Prince of Chang Sha (ªø¨F¤ý Chang Sha is the present day capital of Hunan province ´ò«n¬Ù).

In 183BC Zhao Tuo declared that he was Emperor Wu Di of Nan Yue («n¶VªZ«Ò) and he sent troops to attack Chang Sha. The Han Court dispatched an army under the command of General Lu Lu Hou (³°¿c«J) to counter Zhao Tuo, but the Han troops failed to stop Zhao Tuo, who then occupied a large portion of the Han territory. However, when Empress Gao died in 180BC Zhao Tu abolished his title of Emperor of Nan Yue Kingdom and reverted to his original title of King of Nan Yue Kingdom.

After Zhao Tuo's death he was succeeded by his grandson Zhao Hu (»¯­J). In 112BC, Zhao Xing (»¯¿³), the son of Zhao Hu, was the King of Nan Yue and was requested by the Han Court ambassador, An Guo Shao Ji (¦w°ê¤Ö©u), to visit the Han Emperor Wu Di (º~ªZ«Ò) who then agreed to lift the ban of on selling iron to Nan Yue Kingdom. However, Lu Jia (§f¹Å), the Prime Minister of Nan Yue sabotged the plan by creating a rioting by the soldiers. The Han Emperor Wu Di was angry and he dispatched a large punitive force of 100,000 men, under the command of Lu Bo-de (¸ô³Õ¼w and Yang Po (·¨¹²) to attack the Kingdom of Nan Yue. The 100,000 troops marched into the present day provinces of Guangdong, Guangxi and North Vietnam by five different routes. Within a year the Kingdom of Nan Yue was crushed by the Han forces.

The three Prefectures of Nan Hai, Xiang and Gui Lin were subdivided into nine Prefectures which were Dan Er (äî¦Õ°p), Zhu Ya (¯]±V°p), Nan Hai («n®ü°p), Cang Wu (»a±ï°p), Yu Lin (­§ªL°p), He Pu (¦X®ú°p) Jiao Zhi (¥æ³k°p), Jiu Zhen (¤E¯u°p) and Ri Nan (¤é«n°p).

The soldiers of this large punitive force did not return to their homelands in the north. Instead they sent for their families from the north. Knowing that the land in the south was much fertile many northerners emigrated to the south. Thus new seeds were added to the south from these soldiers and the new settlers who began to call themselves Han Ren (º~¤H).

CHUNG Yoon-Ngan (¾G¥Ã¤¸)
All rights reserved 15122003

Yoon-Ngan

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 Re: why did we call ourself (Chinese) Hans?
Author: SL Lee 
Date:   12-15-03 17:20

enigma

The name Xia is too limited for 'Chinese' already by the time of Qin, and certainly a lot more limited now. It would not be appropriate to use the name Xia then and certainly not now.
--------------

SL Lee

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 Re: why did we call ourself (Chinese) Hans?
Author: enigma 
Date:   12-17-03 09:15

All the major developments of the Sinitic civilisation are from the Huaxia people. The Huaxia were among the first peoples in the world to use a written language, the first to have Bronze technology, the first to use iron and cast iron (steel), the first to have an organised state government, the first to write literature, the first to have a system of ethics that is considered noble even to this day, the first to have a monotheistic religion. During the Spring and Autumn and Warring States Period, the Huaxia developed complex philosophical systems, the only major philosophical tradition outside Greece in the west. Sure, later on, the Huaxia/Sinitic bloodline became diluted with the lineages of other Asiatic peoples(and as the racial/cultural dilution continued the rate of development of the Chinese civilisation slowed down...now why is that? I certainly don't want to sound too radical), but it is the Huaxia bloodline that is significant. Sorry to sound a bit "racist" and "politically incorrect", but have you ever wondered why northeastern Asians (and southeastern Asians with Chinese bloodlines) in general have much higher IQs than native southeastern Asians(and other Asian-derived peoples such as the native Americans)? It is because of this Huaxia/Sinitic lineage. So Confucius is correct when he states that the Sinitic peoples (ÖîÏÄ£© are superior compared to other Asians.

So in a sense you are right, but keep in mind that it is this Huaxia lineage (both cultural and racial) that is significant to the Chinese people. Most of the Chinese family names can be traced back to the original tribes of Huaxia. Most of the better aspects of Chinese culture can also be traced back to the times of the Huaxia. In Confucius' time, the state of Qin was considered semi-barbarian so why base the name of the entire Sinitic race on such a semi-barbarian state? So I shall keep to my original idea that Huaxia is a better term to describe the Chinese people.

By the way, the Huaxia/Sinitic tribes were once a nomadic people from Central Asia (to the north-west of present-day People's Republic of China)that settled into the east Asian mainland much earlier than 3000 BC, according to ancient Chinese texts and traditions. In those days what we know as China now was inhabited by aboriginal peoples similar to the native Australians. These peoples had no written language or any other sophisticated culture and were gradually assimilated by the Sinitic race through inter-marriage and conquest. So yes the Chinese nation is a great mixture of many peoples, but it is the Sinitic lineage that is significant. Otherwise we'd be no different from the native southeastern Asians and native Americans.

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 Re: why did we call ourself (Chinese) Hans?
Author: sjalesho 
Date:   12-17-03 20:05

"I disapprove of what you said, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
--- Voltaire


---
Did he really said this?

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 Chinese is a multicultural mix
Author: SL Lee 
Date:   12-18-03 07:45

enigma

It has been proven that Chinese culture has several centers developed independently and they eventually merged. It does not fit the theory you have. Just look at Sanxingdui. It was a highly developed culture isolated in Sichuan. Xia was only a small tribe in Henan. They knew nothing of the Sanxingdui civilization. However, the Chinese culture we see today definitely should include them. Tuoba, Manchurian, Mongolian, Xixia were not considered Han nor HuaXia. However, they also have contributed significantly to Chinese culture. We should not limit the definition of Chinese culture to HuaXia, although the term is now used in the same way as the word "China" and "Chinese" to symbolize the culture we are talking about. If the term is symbolic any way, "China" and "Chinese" are just as good and more inclusive than HuaXia.

Your last sentence about southeast Asians and native Americans is close to a derogatory remark. Southeast Asians also had a brilliant culture. India and Cambodia are nothing less in their cultural history compared to China. The Olmecs, Aztecs, Hopewells in America are also highly developed cultures in their times until they vanished. You may want to read up on these topics.

A culture needs to be more inclusive to be great.
--------------

SL Lee

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 Re: why did we call ourself (Chinese) Hans?
Author: Danny Lu 
Date:   12-18-03 09:56

Voltaire didn't say that, but someone paraphrase it, nobody is claiming it, and it's not my words, so it must be accredit to someone =)





Dan

=======
"I dis

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 Re: Chinese is a multicultural mix
Author: enigma 
Date:   12-18-03 17:11

India is not a Southeastern Asian culture but a South Asian culture. Indian civilisation did not really take off until the nomadic "Indo-Aryans" from present-day Iran entered the Indian subcontinent. Even after that their civilisation is not on the same level as China's. One important characteristic of a highly developed civilisation is to have a comprehensive historical record. China's comprehensive history texts could fill entire libraries, they span across some 5000 years and the dates of historical events after the 9th century BC are all very accurate. India, by contrast, has hardly any history of their own (even the name "Hindu" is Islamic) and events in AD times still need to be investigated by archeology. Indian books are mostly about superstitious mysticism.

Cambodia and other southeastern Asian cultures in general have been greatly influenced by both Chinese and Indian civilisations. Their cultures are not "native" so to speak.

If the native American cultures are so developed as you say, then why did their cultures vanish so easily with foreign invasion? The native Americans cannot be compared with the Chinese at any rate. They had no written language (they record information by tying knots on strings etc) and no historical record. They are idol-worshippers without an efficient government and had a very sparse population. If you are equaling Chinese culture with that of the native Americans, then what are you trying to say? Are you saying that we Chinese would vanish quickly too in the face of foreign aggression? You are not bringing the native Americans up, because facts are facts and the fact is that their culture is not on the same level as China's, you are just pulling China down.

Yes, I absolutely agree that a culture needs to be inclusive to be great. That is why European culture is great because they are very inclusive of different cultural elements. I am not deliberately looking down on other cultures, I just want to clarify the facts, and China at present needs to know all the facts, instead of just hiding everything away with a false sense of complete equality for everyone.

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 Re: Chinese is a multicultural mix
Author: SL Lee 
Date:   12-18-03 22:05

Do you know how old Angkor is ?

Whether India is a southern Asian country or southeast Asian is not the point. The question is not about India or any one single country. The key is Chinese culture is not simply Hua and Xia. Through the silk road, China has acquired a lot of 'foreign' cultures, foreign at that time. Communication with Persia already started in Han and may be even earlier. In act there is one theory that people of Shandong are migrants from the west. What I am saying is do not limit Chinese culture to what is derived "intrinsically". Hua and Xia were merely a representative of many diversive cultures that were integrated into Chinese culture.

Hua and Xia tribes certainly can no longer represent Chinese. The so called 95% Han population in fact include many who were not Han. We cannot tell any Tuoba, or Manchurian or Mongolian from Han any more.
--------------

SL Lee

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 Re: Chinese is a multicultural mix
Author: enigma 
Date:   12-19-03 18:04

"The key is Chinese culture is not simply Hua and Xia."

I never said that. What I said was that Huaxia is the main thread and the most significant component of Chinese culture, even though indeed as you say it contains many cultural elements from various peoples.

China has always been a very "inclusive" nation, both culturally and racially, and not necessarily always through its own choice. Now the interesting question to ask is that was this actually a good thing for China? Is it a good thing for China now? Looking at China's history I am not so sure about it. Maybe sometimes but not always. It seems China is "inclusive" to the point of not deciding between which cultural elements are good and which are not. Consequently a lot of cultural junk has seeped through into China.

There is a limit to cultural tolerance. Rich diversity is not always a good thing, depending on what this diversity contains. The standard by which cultures are judged is not completely subjective and relativistic.

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 Re: why did we call ourself (Chinese) Hans?
Author: CHUNG Yoon-Ngan 
Date:   12-19-03 22:41


Dear Danny,

Go to Hakka Forum where I have posted hundreds of articles that are better than this one. Go to Google and just type 'hakka' and you will see that our Hakka Forum has the highest ranking out of 183,000 websites. Asiawind is not a kind of newsgroup.

CHUNG Yoon-Ngan
20122003

Yoon-Ngan

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