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 The Three Pillars of Chinese Society – The Tao Foundation – Part 3.
Author: cheok hong chuan 
Date:   04-29-12 14:51

The Three Pillars of Chinese Society – The Tao Foundation – Part 3.

I turn now to Liu I-Ming.

It is Liu I-Ming’s ‘Twenty-four Essentials for Students’ that I wish to furnish to novice modern Taoist Practitioners; courtesy of Thomas Cleary’s translation. I have made some additional comments in brackets where I found it necessary.

[1]See through things of this world. If you cannot see through the things of the world, you will sink into an ocean of suffering. How can you get out?

[2] Cut off entanglements. If you cannot cut off entanglements, the vicious cycles of compulsive habit stand before you.

[3] Thoroughly investigate principle and meaning. If you do not know how to discern the principles of body and mind, you cannot distinguish aberration and sanity, and miss the road.

[4] Find a teacher and associates. When you empty your mind, you can fill the belly [i.e. don’t think, just simply be, as in arise, work, eat & sleep with equanimity [additions mine]]; if you are self-satisfied, you will grow old without development [i.e. gracefully and serenely [additions mine]].

[5] Make determination endure. If you want to accomplish something that endures unchanging, it requires work that endures unceasing.

[6] Get rid of anger and hatred. If you do not sweep yourself clean of anger and hatred, you will be full of turbulence, which will obscure the truth.

[7] Relinquish the attachment to the physical body. See the physical body as something temporary and artificial, and naturally there will be a way to seek the real body.

[8] Do not be afraid of hard work. With strength of mind, one will be able to climb to the summit; if you are afraid of hardship, you will never enter the real.

[9] Tolerate ignominy and endure dishonour. Tolerate ignominy, and though lowly you cannot be surpassed; endure dishonour, and through yielding you can be strong.

[10] Forgive people and defer to others. It is essential to humble oneself and honour others; equanimous deference is a good method.

[11] Take possessions lightly; take life seriously. Ask yourself – even if you pile up mountains of gold, can you buy off impermanence?

[12] View others and self as the same. Others and self have the same source, without high or low; if you discriminate between ‘them’ and ‘us’ you raise dust.

[13] Do not be deluded by alcohol or sex. If you do not drink, your nature will not be deranged; if you are chaste, your life force will be stable.

[14] Accept hunger and cold as they come. Dressing and eating according to circumstances, stop idle imagination; if you are afraid of hunger and cold, your will not be firm.

[15] Leave life and death to destiny. Two things, death and life, depend entirely on nature; the one will to seek the Way is always up to oneself.

[16] Do whatever you can to be helpful. Whatever you are, continue to perform worthy deeds; seeing danger, exert utmost power to help people.

[17] Do not take a liking to excitement. It is easy to lose the real in the midst of excitement and glamour; in the realms of the senses you can derange your essential nature.

[18] Do not be proud or complacent. Arrogance arouses the hatred of others; if you are self-satisfied, you cannot bear the Tao.

[19] Do not crave fine food. Superior people plan for the Way, not for food; inferior people nurture the palate, not the mind [i.e. eat to live and not live to eat; and sleep to rest not to be lazy [additions mine]].

[20] Do not talk about right and wrong. Everyone should sweep the snow from the door, and not be concerned about the frost on another’s roof.

[21] Do not use intellectual brilliance. If you have talent, do not employ it; always be as inept; if you have knowledge, hide it appearing to be ignorant [i.e. do not flaunt and do not boast; just apply your knowledge and skills humbly without ‘ego’ of ‘self’ or craving for recognition or praise [additions mine]].

[22] Sleep less and work more. Working day, cautious by night, effort never ceasing, giving up sleep, forgetting to eat, the will be firm.

[23] Do not take a liking to fine things. Pearls and jade, gold and silver, are things outside the body; vitality and spirit, essence and life, are the fundamental treasures.

[24] Be consistent from beginning to end. If you work without strength, it is hard to reach attainments; only when you die embracing the Tao do you see reality.

CHC
30/4/12

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 Re: The Three Pillars of Chinese Society – The Tao Foundation – Part 3.
Author: Lea Tsang 
Date:   04-29-12 16:43

Wow. I see a lot of parallels with Christian teachings here.

Lea Tsang

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 Re: The Three Pillars of Chinese Society – The Tao Foundation – Part 3.
Author: cheok hong chuan 
Date:   04-29-12 17:16

Lea,

In the Way of the Tao, there are no rituals or faith; you are free to seek freedom, and more particularly to see what freedom means. You are totally free to be yourself. You are free to be Chinese! You can suck monkey’s brains; eat dog balls and burn bamboo castles to your ancestors!

With Christianity you are bonded by a faith. You are told what freedom is. You are told how to achieve freedom. You are told you have to stop being Chinese. You are told to do it the 'gweilo' Christian way or to 'go away'!

The Tao is supreme because it is free and elusive!

CHC
30/4/12

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 Re: The Three Pillars of Chinese Society – The Tao Foundation – Part 3.
Author: Lea Tsang 
Date:   04-29-12 17:32

Cheok,

I was just saying that the Liu I Ming's 24 essentials are very similar to Christian teachings eg: forgive people and defer to others etc...

Is Taoism part of Chinese Folk Religion or vice versa or not related at all? As it would seem there are rituals and faith in Chinese folk religion.

Lea Tsang

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 Re: The Three Pillars of Chinese Society – The Tao Foundation – Part 3.
Author: cheok hong chuan 
Date:   04-29-12 17:57

Lea,

Read earlier reply. In Tao you experience and experiment whatever manner you one. Rituals or no rituals, hand water melons from the ceiling for good luck, donate food to wandering 'ghosts', talk to your ancestors through mediums drunk in trance, whatever you think will inculcate the Tao in you!

In the journey of the Way of the Tao, it is your personal journey, you are Don Quixote!

CHC
30/4/12

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 Re: The Three Pillars of Chinese Society – The Tao Foundation – Part 3.
Author: Lea Tsang 
Date:   04-29-12 18:10

You just said that there are no rituals and no faith in Taoism. Chinese folk religion would suggest that there are rituals and faith. What I understand from what you are saying is that there are no boundaries to the religion of Taoism like in Christianity.

Still I don't think that I could worship other gods from folk religion whilst at the same time believing in Christianity. It's just not for me. Did that before when I was younger which was fine then but just not now.

However, I am still Chinese whilst being a Christian without having to to believe in the Chinese faiths.

Lea Tsang

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 Re: The Three Pillars of Chinese Society – The Tao Foundation – Part 3.
Author: cheok hong chuan 
Date:   04-29-12 18:20

Lea,

Please understand!

A Chinese philosophy are not ‘faiths’ or ‘religions’ as there is no God and there is no mandatory process - everything is at one’s personal volition or at one’s absolute and total discretion or leisure. It is like tai-chi or yoga or meditation or bonsai or cooking classes. Do it or attend whenever you feel like attending or doing. No obligation and no guilty conscience!

You cannot compare apples with oranges!

CHC
30/4/12

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 Re: The Three Pillars of Chinese Society – The Tao Foundation – Part 3.
Author: Lea Tsang 
Date:   04-29-12 18:28

"Do not bow down to any idol or worship it, because I am the Lord your God and I tolerate no rivals."

I could therefore not bow down before Guan Yin nor Tin Hau goddesses whom my family worship.

Lea Tsang

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 Re: The Three Pillars of Chinese Society – The Tao Foundation – Part 3.
Author: cheok hong chuan 
Date:   04-29-12 19:16

Lea,

You do not worship Guanyin, you revere her as you would revere and bow to your school teacher or kung-fu master; just as you would bow in homage to your deceased ancestors!

If you are caught in a blizzard, and all is left is the wooden statue of Buddha or Guanyin, by all means burn them as wood; ask for understanding before you do, or even joke about it, that they will have good karma for saving your life. You can joke with Buddha and even kill him if he troubles you in your meditation!

"Do not bow down to any idol or worship it, because I am the Lord your God and I tolerate no rivals." - is meant for your spirit and not your worldly body self. That idol that God is talking about in relation to the 1st Adam is the idol of Adam's false alter-ego thinking he could be like God and do things like God, when he tasted the Tree of Knowledge. Satan told him that he could be God! The son-of-Adam i.e. the son-of-man is the very idol that God is talking about, the alter ego that thinks he is God! Spirit God could not care less what the worldly man does in the World of Caesar; God is only interested in his lost prodigal spirit sons-of-God lost in this world of Man and in worldly existence.

Every time you idolise yourself and be a prey to your pride and arrogance of 'ego' of 'self', when you still have the ‘I’ in ‘you’, you are and remain separated from God! And breaking His Commandments!

CHC
30/4/12

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 Re: The Three Pillars of Chinese Society – The Tao Foundation – Part 3.
Author: FM Liew 
Date:   04-29-12 22:52

I could therefore not bow down before Guan Yin nor Tin Hau goddesses whom my family worship.

==========

You could do anything you want. Smash the figurine if you want...but that's dis-respectful.

Bowing down is to show repect, and not necessary a form of worship as what was probably being told to you.

We bow to the teacher to show respect. We bow to one another to show respect. The martial-art exponents bow to one another before the fights begin.

There're lots of mis-conception about Chinese practises. Taoism/daoism is a teaching...not a religion, yet it's perceive and accuse as a religion.

Who cares, as "dao" fits in all shapes and sizes, and accommodate the entire universe...

When you are that accommodating...would you be bothered by the insignificance?

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 Re: The Three Pillars of Chinese Society – The Tao Foundation – Part 3.
Author: cheok hong chuan 
Date:   04-29-12 23:25

FM Liew,

I can see you have the Tao. May the Tao be with you always for helping me get the Tao across to fellow Chinese.

It is because we are with the Tao that we are so tolerant to other Chinese being Christians or Hindus or Ghost Worshippers or whatever.

That is why we can accept Monkey, Pigsy, Sandfish as travelling companions to Tripitaka in the Journey West!

WE can accept all foreign things like Communism and capitalism. So long as they blend in with the Tao, and have Chinese characteristics!

CHC
30/4/12

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 Re: The Three Pillars of Chinese Society – The Tao Foundation – Part 3.
Author: tom Dragon 
Date:   04-30-12 09:51

"Do not bow down to any idol or worship it, because I am the Lord your God and I tolerate no rivals."

Only ppl with small mindset can write such thing, chinese call them "xiao-ren."

The bible writers, one faction against the other, one group of the priests prefer to eat lamb meat while the other group prefer goat meat etc, the rivalry between their Godcults, chinese don't need to care and got deep into their karma melee, because of their xiao ren priesty writings the Jew ppl suffered during WWII, that is karma. in the past Moses had to kill off hundred of Jewish factions and their God belief systems to claim his own(King Solomon had his own thousand Gods in his elaborate temple settings.) the Pauline Xtians had to kill/murder hundred of other competing Xtian factions. Xtians sure not bowdown to Yahweh or their own Xtian fellows in their own terms these days because of this kind of xiaoren mindset, some even chose to worship Mary. don't mention Moslems they sure would spit on Yahweh and the gospel, they created their own Allah and worship the lingam in Mekka(Hinduism essentially).

Godcult religions are created by xiao ren , for the xiao ren. we don't need their ignorant superstition stuff, they don't need to come to china, they are uninvited. if they are good philosophy we go to them, like the famous Tang Monk did.

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 Re: The Three Pillars of Chinese Society – The Tao Foundation – Part 3.
Author: tom Dragon 
Date:   04-30-12 09:55

FM it is this kind of small mindset writings that tips it all off-bible god is very fake man made stuff.

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 Re: The Three Pillars of Chinese Society – The Tao Foundation – Part 3.
Author: tom Dragon 
Date:   04-30-12 10:01

big ego has no end, we are very lucky to get to know the Dao.

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 Re: The Three Pillars of Chinese Society – The Tao Foundation – Part 3.
Author: tom Dragon 
Date:   04-30-12 10:06

FM, no need to bow when it comes to martial art, only a small knot of the head is suffice to show your understanding, see the movies "Kill Bill" :)

gweilo came to invade china just because they refuse to bowdown to the chinese emperor? is that a pretext for open invasion? another reason to attack china these days, same thing plays out..over and over again.

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 Re: The Three Pillars of Chinese Society – The Tao Foundation – Part 3.
Author: tom Dragon 
Date:   04-30-12 10:19

can you also post the print in chinese , thanks.

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 Re: The Three Pillars of Chinese Society – The Tao Foundation – Part 3.
Author: Lea Tsang 
Date:   04-30-12 12:54

Cheok,

My priest told me that I could perform these ceremonies such as bowing down before Guanyin or Tin Hau just as long as I know that my heart is in Christianity and that I did not believe in these other deities.

Separating your spirit from your worldly body? Can this be done? I would have thought the only time this can be done is when you die?

What do you mean by idolising self?

Lea Tsang

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 Re: The Three Pillars of Chinese Society – The Tao Foundation – Part 3.
Author: Lea Tsang 
Date:   04-30-12 13:01

Well there must be millions of xiao ren in China as there are millions of people there who practice Christianity.

I don't see why you have to classify your religions. Christianity does not just belong to the West just as Buddhism does not belong to the East. To you religion seems to be a competition. You seem to be saying "My religion is better than your religion!" There is no competition. Everyone believes in what they want to believe in.

Lea Tsang

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 Re: The Three Pillars of Chinese Society – The Tao Foundation – Part 3.
Author: FM Liew 
Date:   04-30-12 13:26

My priest told me that I could perform these ceremonies such as bowing down before Guanyin or Tin Hau just as long as I know that my heart is in Christianity and that I did not believe in these other deities.

===========

Your priest should tell you to apply common sense.

Better still, you should keep your priest[ess] in your pocket...:o)

I didn't realize that you got such a hard time paying respect to somebody.

In other words, any one you don't believe[ do you'v the knowledge ], you won't respect...including your friends' parents..

BTW, what if your priest told you not to honor your parents, would you heed his advice?

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 Re: The Three Pillars of Chinese Society – The Tao Foundation – Part 3.
Author: Lea Tsang 
Date:   04-30-12 13:32

My priest did not tell me to not to pay respect to people.

He just says that as long as I don't believe in the deities I can perform the rituals and ceremonies.

There's a difference between respecting an individual person and worshipping a deity!

Lea Tsang

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 Re: The Three Pillars of Chinese Society – The Tao Foundation – Part 3.
Author: tom Dragon 
Date:   04-30-12 19:24

I suspect you are a whitie gweilo because you seem to split subjects and confuse, they tend to do that a lot , plus HK ppl don't have Tsang as last name.

what I said was the "bible writers" were Xiao-ren.

now about the millions of Xtians you mention who live in China, ..let me tell you about Xtian in general , not only the one who live in china: Any Xtian who don't yet know that the bible God was created by man, is ignorant.

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 Re: The Three Pillars of Chinese Society – The Tao Foundation – Part 3.
Author: Lea Tsang 
Date:   04-30-12 23:19

Well you obviously do not not know anything about HK or it's people. Try looking up the name of HK current Chief Executive (leader). I live in the UK of HK descent BTW. You must be one of those mainlanders who know nothing about regional dialects! If you call yourself Chinese you will know that my surname is the Cantonese form of Zeng which is the 32 most popular Chinese surname. Go do your homework before you start making a fool of yourself!

You said Godcult religions were created by xiao ren for xiao ren.

Lea Tsang

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 Re: The Three Pillars of Chinese Society – The Tao Foundation – Part 3.
Author: CHUNG Yoon Ngan 
Date:   05-01-12 00:12


Dear Lea Tsang,

A friend of mine who is very highly educated in English. However, he is
100%
Chinese illiterate. He was born and grew up in Malaysia. For more than 60
years he did not know how his Chinese surname look like. He was a big boss
in the Malaysian Government. He always looked down at those Chinese educated
Chinese. My ranking in the Malaysian Government was as high as his if not higher. I was in charge of the finance of one of the 13 States
in Malaysia. I told him off in Mandarin and he could not understand me.
So I spoke in English that his surname was Wang 王 four strokes only. I
told him again his 王 was for 王八蛋. I told him to ask people to translate
the meaning of his surname for him. I left him.

There are many, many "BANANA CHINESE" in Malaysia. These people are not interested
to learn Chinese and feel ashamed to know Chinese Culture

Back to the main topic. This is the history of your surname ZENG 曾.
I am very interested in the 6 or 7 thousand Chinese surnames. So far I had
published a book on 550 Chinese surnames in 2000. My second book, in Chinese and
English, like Dr SL Lee's book on 鄭和, is about to finish.

Please send copies of the history of your surname to ALL the ZENGs you know.


------------------------------------------------------

孔子曰: Confucius said:

三人行, 必有我師焉!---San ren2 xing2, bi4 you3 wo3 shi yan!
擇其善者而從之;--------Ze2 qi2 shan4 zhe3 er2 cong2 zhi;
其不善者而改之.--------Qi2 bu4 shan4 zhe3 er2 gai zhi.

There are three people walking, including me,
and two others who could be one wise and the other not so wise.
I follow the wise one and also use the wisdom of the wise one to correct
the one who is not so wise. Thus the two will become my teacher.

三個人在一起走路, 其中便一定有可以做我師範的地方.
選擇他們的好處跟他學; 那不好的地方, 如果我自問也有, 就改掉.
-----------------------------------------------------------

The 32nd most common Chinese surname is

ZENG (曾)

Zeng means: has already been; great-grand (father or child).
The surname Zeng is about 2,500 years old.
The ancient character of present Zeng was Ceng (鄫).

The surname Zeng originated in an area referred to during the Jin Dynasty
(晉朝 265AD to 420AD) as the Lu prefecture (魯郡). The present day location
of Lu prefecture is in Qufu county (曲阜縣 117.0 degree East and 35.6 degree
North, on the world map) in Shandong province (山東省).

In 2118BC, Xia King Shaokang (夏少康王) became the 6th King of the Xia Dynasty
(夏朝 2205BC to 1766BC); Si (姒) was the family surname of all the 16 rulers
during the Xia Dynasty. Xia King Shaokang gave his youngest son, Si Qulie
(似曲烈), authority to rule the Ceng (鄫) district, located in the present
day county of Linyi county (臨沂縣) in Shandong province). Si Qulie then
became known as Si Ceng (姒鄫). The district of Ceng was eventually became
a state, the State of Ceng (鄫國). The people of Ceng lived peacefully for
more than 1500 years.

In 641BC, during the period of Spring and Autumn (春秋時間 722BC to 481BC)
of the Zhou Dynasty (周朝 1134BC to 256BC) that the leader of Ceng, while
on his way for an official visit to the State of Cao (曹國 the present day
county of Dingtao 定陶縣 in Shandong province), was imprisoned by Zi Zifu
(子茲甫), the 19th ruler of the State of Song (宋國 the present day city
of Shangqiu 商丘市 in Henan province 河南省). Zi Zifu killed the ruler of
Ceng and used his blood as sacrifice to the River God in Suishui (睢水)
River in Henan province. Historical records are unclear as to the reasons
behind the killing.

Fifty years later, again in 591BC, another ruler of the State of Ceng was
murdered, this time by the ruler of the State of Zhu (邾國 the present day
county of Qiu 丘縣 in Shandong province). Due to the unexplained reasons
behind the Cao incident and also the reasons behind this murder in the State
of Zhu, there was a struggle for the power among the royal members of the
Ceng Court.

The dispute continued for twenty five years and during this period Ceng
was without a ruler. In 567BC, a neighbouring State called Ju (莒國 in the
present day county of Ju in Shandong province, took advantage of Ceng's
instability and annexed Ceng.

Wu (巫), the Crown Prince of Ceng, fled to the State of Lu (魯國 in the
present day county of Qufu in Shandong province). In remembrance of his
extinct State he adopted ZENG (曾) as his surname which was written without
the radical big ear on the right. Arguing that since Ceng (鄫) was conquered
and annexed by the State of Ju his surname should be written without the
radical big ear on the right (i.e. Yi 邑) which means city). Ultimately the
word Zeng was written like this 曾.

The couplet for surname Zeng is,

源起鄫國,---Yuan qi3 Ceng Guo,
望出魯郡.---Wang4 chu Lu Jun.

The source of surname Zeng was the State of Ceng,
And it originated from the prefecture of Lu.
--------------------------------------------------------------
The prominent persons produced by the Zeng Clan:

(1) Zeng San (曾參)

治其國,------Zhi4 qi2 guo2,
平其天下,---Ping2 qi2 tian xia4,
學業貫通.---Xue2 ye4 guan4 tong.

To administer a country,
To redress the grievances of the people,
One must be a well leaned man.

Zeng San was born in Wucheng (武成) in the present day Shangdong province
(山東省) during the Spring and Autumn Period (春秋時代 722BC to 481BC).
He was a pupil of Confucius, the Great scholar and philosopher. Zeng San
studied diligently when he was young. He was a well known piety filial.
His famous book was Xiao Jing (孝經).

It was believed that the Classic entitled 大學 (Da Xue) The Great Learning,
one of the 四書 (Si Shu), The Four Books, was written by Zeng San.

(2) 曾朴 (Zeng Pu)

Zeng Pu was from Changre county (常熱縣) in Jiangsu province (江蘇省). He
wrote a book called 孽海花 (Nie Hai Hua) which was very popular during the
Qing Dynasty (清朝 1644AD to 1912AD). His famous couplet was,

三千上客紛紛至,---San qian shang4 ke4 fen fen zhi4,
百萬財源滾滾來.---Bai3 wan4 cai2 yuan2 gun3 gun3 lai2.

Being frequented by three thousand of customers,
Millions of dollars rolling in

(3) 曾鞏 (Zeng Gong 1019AD to 1083AD)

Zeng Gong was from the county of Nanfeng (南豐縣) in Jiangxi province (江
西省). He passed the Imperial Examinations and became a Jin Shi (進士 or
the Imperial Graduate) during the reign of Emperor Ren Zong Zhao Zhen (仁
宗皇帝趙禎 1023AD to 1083AD) of Song Dynasty (宋朝 960AD to 1279AD). He
was appointed as an official. At that time, he was one of the most popular
poets and his essays were considered to be one of the best. His book called
"Yuan Feng Lei Gao 元豐類稿) was very popular. He was commissioned to establish
a library where many books were kept.
-------------------------------------------

Posted to asiawind.com
By CHUNG Yoon-Ngan (鄭永元)

Reply To This Message
 
 Re: The Three Pillars of Chinese Society – The Tao Foundation – Part 3.
Author: Lea Tsang 
Date:   05-01-12 03:41

Hello Chung Yoon Ngan,

Although born and brought up in the UK I do not consider myself a complete banana Chinese. I only understand a little written Chinese but do speak Cantonese and Hakka more or less fluently.

I don't know why Tom Dragon said that Tsang is not a valid Chinese surname. He probably is a mainland Chinese who only knows putonghua and mandarin pinyin so does not know that there are other spellings which are not mandarin pinyin. Also if he knows so much about Hong Kong, I don't understand why he has never heard of Donald Tsang the current Chief Executive of HK.

Anyway, thanks for the explanation of my surname. I had already read it on another thread. It was an interesting and informative read.

Lea Tsang

Reply To This Message
 
 Re: The Three Pillars of Chinese Society – The Tao Foundation – Part 3.
Author: tom Dragon 
Date:   05-01-12 09:51

So you are born and raised in Uk, no wonder you are like a tape recorder, like a certain John Mak guy who was here not long ago, he also born and raised oversea as Xtian and church goer he claimed to have personal relationship with God also but acted/think/talk like a tape recorder, it tipped off everything.
see how ppl can be uniformedly influenced by what ppl wrote in the bible and say in the mass bible studies etc, they more think/act/talk like the same w/o their own knowing, Cheok was like that but since he can read chinese he blended some, now he starts quoting some chinese philosophies he is funny person :) .

Reply To This Message
 
 Re: The Three Pillars of Chinese Society – The Tao Foundation – Part 3.
Author: Lea Tsang 
Date:   05-01-12 10:35

Tom,

If I am an English tape recorder then you are a Chinese tape recorder.

I only became a Christian a few years ago and was only baptised a couple of years ago. I chose to become a Christian and was not indoctrinated from a young age. I chose Christianity because I believe.

I've never been to bible studies. In fact I know very little about the bible. I've only read the 4 Gospels and a little bit of the Old Testament. However, I believe. That's the main thing.

So I am born and brought up in the UK. That does not make me any less Chinese. I see that most of the posters here have Malaysian Chinese names so that gives me a hint that they might have been born and brought up in Malaysia. That does not make them any less Chinese.

You however have probably never set foot outside the Mainland which is why you did not recognise my surname and did not know of Donald Tsang. You may know how to write Chinese but you seem to be ignorant of other Chinese cultures outside of the mainland.

Lea Tsang

Reply To This Message
 
 Re: The Three Pillars of Chinese Society – The Tao Foundation – Part 3.
Author: tom Dragon 
Date:   05-01-12 11:15

I did not say you are English recorder but Xtian tape recorder you twist things again.
Politicians come and go in HK , couple of mayors died because of bad fungshui their building locates at who knows, not interested who is in office anymore.
you see what you act/talk/think say more than what your lastname is , you had done more to ruin it, I don't see a Tsang anymore but a factory stamped out Xtian, you need to read the whole bible to have your own interpretation of the bible, of what people wrote instead of repeating verbatimly the Xtian Logos, mottos like cheok did sometime ago.

Reply To This Message
 
 Re: The Three Pillars of Chinese Society – The Tao Foundation – Part 3.
Author: tom Dragon 
Date:   05-01-12 11:19

yes as I have mentioned, I have encountered similar Xtian youths or new-born Xtian on the net, their conversation and mode of thought is same as yours. it's that spot on.

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 Re: The Three Pillars of Chinese Society – The Tao Foundation – Part 3.
Author: Lea Tsang 
Date:   05-01-12 11:39

I'm not a factory stamped out Christian. Things have happened in my life which led me down this path to believing in Christianity. I wasn't born into a Christian family. I've tried to follow my parents' beliefs but that was not right for me. At one time I tried to accept both Christianity and Chinese beliefs into my life but that got too confusing and I eventually accepted Christianity as my sole religion.

I believe that everyone should have the right to worship or not worship whatever religion they want as long as they do not impose it on others.

Lea Tsang

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 Re: The Three Pillars of Chinese Society – The Tao Foundation – Part 3.
Author: tom Dragon 
Date:   05-01-12 12:26

any religion is confusing, because God wants this God wants that it's hard to please.
Hinduism is the closest Godcult to china yet chinese have nothing to do with Hinduism, same for Mediterranean Godcults, chinese have no problem to refuse.

you say [[I've tried to follow my parents' beliefs but that was not right for me. At one time I tried to accept both Christianity and Chinese beliefs into my life but that got too confusing and I eventually accepted Christianity as my sole religion. ]]

that's the problem right there, a meditationer does not follow the ego to this religion or switch to other religion, but just watch, is enough. your parents certainly did not suggest you to follow other religion, your situation is same as mine , I have both camp in my family, I chose to just watch what they do, I go along with them but not have to "follow" or copy them.
Sort out the issues that troubles you , life is not all about success or loaded with money sometime. some ppl joined the Jews and Xtians thinking they are rich.

I used to have issues with paper burning josstick tosting all that sort of things and I have expressed in this forum ...that it was a waste of money and resource..but right now after watching and meditated upond it for awhile, I find it actually acceptable kind of positive karma, why? because it doesn't cause bad karma and that is good enough in today's world turmoil, it does not involving killing/murdering taking other people's life, it just burn some money , it's not that bad, that's why it can endure, it's same as giving money to the church but most churches had gone bankrupt. and I do attend church regularly. but it's also good to burn some bad karma away. I have friends who are into many sort of religions but none of them serious about it and I think because they are very educated and very smart.

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 Re: The Three Pillars of Chinese Society – The Tao Foundation – Part 3.
Author: Paul Yih 
Date:   05-01-12 12:53

China has a lot more than just the three pillars -- but yes, the basis of these three is good enough for all .

Paul Yih

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 Re: The Three Pillars of Chinese Society – The Tao Foundation – Part 3.
Author: Tin-Kay Goh 
Date:   05-01-12 14:26

Lea, you do not need to follow any one religion wholesale. Accept what is good for you and reject what is inappropriate. You have free will and you can make your own decisions. Do not follow anyone or any group by pleasing them against your instinct and conscience.

Respect your parents and ancestors, and in our and their short lifespans make your parents happy. This will please any God, for no God can make you forsake your parents for an Unknown. When born again zealots demolished their ancestral and deity altars, they are blind to the pain they caused in their parents and relatives who have felt assured of peace with appeasing the same ancestors and deities for generations. Doing a respectful gesture, as advised by FM Liew, for any entity, even by burning some incense to please your parents, is a rank higher than pleasing one's priest or pastor.

Taking Christianity as an example, I question why God is masculine. Why can't women become priests in the Catholic faith? Why can't God be single rather than three in one? Are we the only creature with reason, and the rest of the world subservient to us, because God created us in "His Image".

While in a Catholic missionary school I had to swallow a lot without question. We had to go to the chapel at 5am to recite without true understanding Thomas Aquinas words in Latin

Tantum ergo Sacramentum
Veneremur cernui:
Et antiquum documentum
Novo cedat ritui:
Praestet fides supplementum
Sensuum defectui.

We had to say the prayer to our Father who art jn Heaven, as well as Hail Mary full of grace. How could Mary conceive Jesus as a Virgin? There has never been any Human Parthenogenesis reported in history since the purported Mary's Virgin Birth. For readers who are Catholics and Christians, please do not be offended because I am only espousing theological questions. I am in no way wanting to convert or reconvert anyone. Pardon me for my soliloquy.

How infallible are the Three Councils in Hippo, or St. Augustine (who grappled with the thoughts of Socrates and Plato) or Thomas Aquinas (who added Aristotle and Roman philosophical logic to Augustine thoughts)? To Catholic theologians, Man is considered the only animal who can think, and yet today we know that monkeys, hippos and octopuses can think. (ah, Descartes should discuss with Zhaungzi about existence). I can related the interesting observations on these animals, but it will make this post too long. The closest "reason" to explain God by Thomas Aquinas is actually relating God to Nature. Everything else that he called reason is based on false premises eg the world and human body have such amazing "designs" so there must be a Creator.

As SL Lee had said, we must stand by scientific facts. Even what we view as factual today may be heresy tomorrow, but that scientific exercise is still the best yardstick to follow. At least we have numeral certainty and some exactitude in correlation. (BTW the shortness distance between two geographical places is not a straight line because it is actually an arc on the globe.) When religious people talk of truth, they do not mean "factual" truth. They imply godliness and goodness.

It is for the very fact that we cannot prove there is a God that I nowadays refrain from involving myself in too many discussions with people who have fixed mindset about God. We must respect and leave God to people who, just on mere faith, accept God. Generally speaking, these people who have God "on their side" have more motivation and a better code of conduct. The only fault is that too often they bar those outside their church from the gate of Heaven. Frankly, I would prefer to go to Hell and enjoy the company of John Kennedy, Voltaire and Casanova than sit in Heaven listening to the diatribe of a partly demented Pope blessing with shaky hands.

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 Re: The Three Pillars of Chinese Society – The Tao Foundation – Part 3.
Author: Lea Tsang 
Date:   05-01-12 15:36

Tin-Kay,

Without going into personal detail, I can say that I chose to believe in Christianity not because of any one person or group influencing me but because of spiritual intervention. It's difficult to explain. It's not rational but is any religion?

As for Catholicism, I found it too strict and exclusive. When I lived in France I used to attend mass at Catholic churches on ocasion and found that they were not very accepting of people from outside. I wasn't baptised at the time and was told that I couldn't take communion or be pardonned by a priest at confession. All in all I don't really like their way of excluding people or way of worship.

On returning to the UK, I started going to an Anglican church which is much more liberal. I was able to take communion without having to be baptised. I was free to talk to my priest who was very sympathetic. For a start he hasn't always lived his adult life as a priest. He is married and has a child. Someone who has life experience compared to a pious catholic priest.

I myself do not believe that only those who believe in Christ will go to Heaven. I believe that Christ died for all of us so that we can all pass through the gates of heaven. I've had discussions about this on Christian forums and they all believe that you must accept Jesus as your saviour before you will can go to heaven. I think that is a strict interpretation of the bible and elitist. I disagree.

Lea Tsang

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 Re: The Three Pillars of Chinese Society – The Tao Foundation – Part 3.
Author: Lea Tsang 
Date:   05-01-12 15:43

Tom,

Everyone on this forum seem to go on about "ego". What is this ego theory all about. I really don't understand. Is it about selfishness? Can someone explain in simple terms?

Lea Tsang

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 Re: The Three Pillars of Chinese Society – The Tao Foundation – Part 3.
Author: cheok hong chuan 
Date:   05-01-12 15:58

Lea,

I have just posted something on 'EGO' by OSHO.

Understanding EGO is essential to the path of spirituality and ENLIGHTENMENT.

Osho is not Taoist/Buddhist. In Taoism/Buddhism - there is in fact no ego or self in the world - everything is an 'illusion'. If there is a self in the other world - the spirit world -is egoless in the sense of not being self-conscious of ego. In the spirit world, one is in everyone and everyone is in one as in drops of water or air in water and the wind.

CHC
3/5/12

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 Re: The Three Pillars of Chinese Society – The Tao Foundation – Part 3.
Author: Lea Tsang 
Date:   05-01-12 16:39

Cheok,

So what religion/philosophy does the theory of "ego" come from? Is Osho religious?

Lea Tsang

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 Re: The Three Pillars of Chinese Society – The Tao Foundation – Part 3.
Author: cheok hong chuan 
Date:   05-01-12 17:13

Lea,

I think he dead. He was an Indian YOGI, sort of Transcedental Meditation, as he was not into Hindu Gods.

He wrote about Buddhism and Christianity as well! He did so in a neutral spiritual sort of way; as to the spiritual teachings of Buddha and Jesus as spiritual holy beings!

CHC
3/5/12

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 Re: The Three Pillars of Chinese Society – The Tao Foundation – Part 3.
Author: Tin-Kay Goh 
Date:   05-01-12 18:31

You are a balanced person Lea, and that is what matters. Life is more a journey than a destination. The path keeps changing with time. I received an interesting email clip that Life is like a train journey with people we meet getting in and out. Whatever path we take, we should follow our conscience and our heart. It was great hearing that you are a good daughter looking after your parents. Cheers.

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 Re: The Three Pillars of Chinese Society – The Tao Foundation – Part 3.
Author: Lea Tsang 
Date:   05-01-12 19:01

Hello Tin-Kay,

I feel that it is only is normal to look after my parents. They brought us up with their hardwork and paid for our education. Therefore when they are less able to look after themselves it is your duty to look after them. I don't even question it. People often question me and say why do you take on the burden of looking after your parents. I don't see it as a burden as I want my parents to live comfortably in their autumn years if I can help them.

What I don't understand is the Chinese thinking that sons are more important than their daughters. For the sake of disruption to family harmony my parents handed over their entire retirement money to my brother only for him not to contribute to their daily financial needs afterwards. This is one aspect of Chinese culture which I find unfair.

Lea Tsang

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 Re: The Three Pillars of Chinese Society – The Tao Foundation – Part 3.
Author: cheok hong chuan 
Date:   05-01-12 19:41

Lea,

You are not speaking as a Hakka woman. In a Hakka family boys and girls are equal! In fact the girls are 'more equal' than the boys, as my sisters would attest. To the Hakka women the men were just a 'necessity'!

In Hakka 'gossip', daughters are more filial than the sons! In that sense being Hakka you are not like the 'vanilla' variety type of Chinese! You are a 'woman warrior'!

You should be honoured and proud that you are a Hakka woman!

CHC
"Hakka Ngin'
2/5/12

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 Re: The Three Pillars of Chinese Society – The Tao Foundation – Part 3.
Author: Tin-Kay Goh 
Date:   05-01-12 19:57

Lea, your parents, like all Confucians, do not treat sons and daughters equally. They have been ingrained about their sons carrying the family name, and their daughters married away to other families. Despite this unfair beneficial and monetary bias to your brother, you have done the honor of looking after your parents. This is laudable. Your love for your parents will transcend this unfairness.

At the time of Confucius, and also prior to his period, the Chinese surnames were inherited by the females. In term of genetic continuity, the female line is definite on progeny than the male line. Similarly, the Jews defined a Jew as born of a Jewess. No man can claim with absolute certainty that the child born by his wife is actually his. Even the First Emperor of China, Qin Shi Huangdi, (Ying Zheng) was not the true son of the King of Qin. His mother wad impregnated by the businessman Lu Buwei when she was given to Qin Shi Huangdi's "father" while the later was a hostage prince in the State of Zhao.

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 Re: The Three Pillars of Chinese Society – The Tao Foundation – Part 3.
Author: Lea Tsang 
Date:   05-01-12 20:04

Hong Chuan,

I think in this day and age it's usually the daughters who are more filial than the sons no matter what nationality or ethnic origin. My mum says you give birth to your own daughter but you give birth to someone else's son.

Lea

A hakka moy

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 Re: The Three Pillars of Chinese Society – The Tao Foundation – Part 3.
Author: cheok hong chuan 
Date:   05-01-12 20:14

Message to Chung Yoon Ngan

Please post that episode about the invincible Hakka women warriors during the Taiping Rebellion against the Manchus and also the Hakka women brigade during the Long March.

CHC
2/5/12

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 Re: The Three Pillars of Chinese Society – The Tao Foundation – Part 3.
Author: Lea Tsang 
Date:   05-01-12 20:18

Tin-Kay,

Interesting fact about females inheriting the surnames.

My brother despite his wealth will have no male heir to inherit his money or name. I think that both he and my father are upset about that. My dad keeps saying that my sister in law has ended the family blood line (chet jung in hakka and jute jung in canto meaning literally terminate root I think). It makes me laugh, as to me my niece is still a blood descendant even though her name won't be passed down.

Lea Tsang

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 Re: The Three Pillars of Chinese Society – The Tao Foundation – Part 3.
Author: Tin-Kay Goh 
Date:   05-01-12 21:51

What good is a surname unless it is related to a dignitary or to continue ancestral worship. If there is no male line, the female can still continue with the family blood line. Your father and brother should accept destiny and let your niece and her children carry the family name.

The most distressing situation is that of a woman who keeps bearing girls. The in-laws would berate her wrongly because it is actually the son's fault for giving her the X sperm and not the Y sperm. Many a Chinese men have unkindly cast aside the wife and taken a second wife to get a male line. I hope your father and brother understand X and Y sperms. Indians are just as bad as Chinese in this blaming.

As for Confucian philosophy, the ethics are superb. The only failing is sexual discrimination. Under the Confucian philosopher, Mencius, a woman has to obey the father, then the husband, then the Eldest son. Until modern times, the girls of respectable family are kept locked up except to follow their mother to the temple. Hence, the temple in many love stories is where the girl meets the boy.

An interesting movie from a book by Lisa See called "Snow Flower and the Secret Fan" bears out the hardship and sufferance of Chinese women.

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 HAKKA WOMEN
Author: cheok hong chuan 
Date:   05-01-12 22:13

Christian Souls and Chinese Spirits
A Hakka Community in Hong Kong
Nicole Constable
UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA PRESS
Berkeley • Los Angeles • Oxford
© 1994 The Regents of the University of California
________________________________________
EXTRACTS
Hakka Women
It has been well documented that Hakka often occupied the poorer, more isolated, and less fertile areas of Guangdong and Hong Kong during the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, while the Punti, like the Lung Yeuk Tau Teng, occupied the more productive fertile areas (M. Cohen 1968; Leong 1985). As a result of economic hardships, men from some Hakka villages chose to emigrate southward and overseas to find work, while Hakka women were left behind with the children and the elderly. The women tended the fields
________________________________________
¯ 135 ¯
and participated in "men's" work (see Pratt 1960). But even in nonemigrant villages, according to one Tsung Tsin mission pastor, Hakka women worked at farming—"hoeing and planting seeds while the men would lead the buffaloes and plow the earth"—and thus earned their widespread reputation for hard work.
As Mr. C. explained, Hakka women are taught that they must be able to adapt to different situations and must work hard. At an early age, women of his generation learned the popular phrase, "Jouhdak gunleuhng, cheutdak tengtong" (Be an official's wife, come out to the drawing room). He interpreted this to mean that "they must know how to be an important official's wife, as well as cook and clean." They should be able to "talk to important guests," and also "know when to leave the drawing room and do hard work." With their reputation for hard work, Hakka women are often held up as exemplars of Hakka character.
Another Hakka man said that Hakka women are better prepared for hard work than non-Hakka women. This view is widely expressed throughout Hong Kong, where Hakka women have a reputation for hard work whether in the fields, on construction sites or on the golf course. Indeed, some non-Hakka farmers are said to have preferred a Hakka wife because they are believed to be more accustomed to hard work. According to Pasternak, whose research was conducted in Taiwan, "Hakka women everywhere enjoy a reputation as exceptional workers. I was often assured by Hokkien friends as well as by Hakka that Hakka women make exceptional wives for that reason" (1983:25).
Less agreement exists on the topic of Hakka men. Two Hakka women, and two non-Hakka women married to Hakka men, told me that Hakka men are lazy compared to their female counterparts. In the words of one young Hakka woman in Shung Him Tong, "There is one thing which is not so good about Hakka culture and that is that the women work harder than the men … but this was in the past." Yee Ling was not convinced that it is a thing of the past. She complained that her father wanted to be treated "like a king" and was too lazy to put toothpaste on his own toothbrush, let alone polish his own shoes. I found among Hakka men in Hong Kong, as Pasternak found among Hakka men in Taiwan, disagreement with the idea that they "spend a lot of time sitting around talking while their wives do all the work," although they are the first to agree that "their women are among China's most industrious" (1983:25).
The high rate of male absenteeism in many Hakka villages might explain such characterizations of Hakka men and women as that written by a nineteenth-century European traveler in Guangdong: "It seems to be mainly the women who do the hard work. They do not bind their feet … [and] are strong and erect…. [T]he women do all the carrying and heavy work. The men do not even know how to carry water—and probably do not demand that
________________________________________
¯ 136 ¯
the women give them lessons at it" (In Aijmer 1967:75–76). Eugene Anderson was also told that Hakka "women work while the men sit and sing" in the Castle Peak area of Hong Kong where he conducted research. His explanation is that the men "once had to spend much of their time on guard against attacks, and left gardening and other such work to the women. Now, of course, both sexes work" (1968:98).
Most of the Hakka men I asked in Shung Him Tong insist that they are as hardworking as women, with the exception of "Heung Yee," a Hakka Christian in his forties who said that the one "really terrible thing about Hakka culture" is the way they treat boys: "Hakka spoil boys and give them everything…. It is well known that Hakka women are strong and hardworking. They have to be because the spoiled boys won't do any work. The men are so spoilt that the women have to do everything." All the boys from the village where he grew up go to the United Kingdom to be cooks, and "when they come back to Hong Kong they are lazy." Now when he returns to that village the old people there say to him, "You know why you grew up to be a good son? Because you were poor." It is important to note in this case that most members of the village where he grew up, including the "lazy young men," were not Christian. Heung Yee disagrees in part with their explanation. He and his brothers are successful, he says, partly because their parents raised them as Christians and taught them to respect hard work and education. While many Hakka will claim that whether they are rich or poor, male or female, there is seldom a loafer among them, according to one Christian Hakka man; Christianity provides further assurance that Hakka people will stay on the right track.
Related to their ability to work hard is the reputation of Hakka women for never having practiced the custom of foot-binding. The practice of foot-binding was a symbol of female subordination reflecting a woman's virtue and the moral standing of her family. It was a sign of high status—evidence that women did not need to partake in physical labor and rarely left the house. Although foot-binding was at first limited to elite families, by the nineteenth century it was a widespread practice among nonelites as well, with the exception of Hakka women and women in some of the tea- and silk-producing regions of southern China (Anagnost 1989:330). Yee Ling, Mr. C., Mr. P., and other Hakka I spoke to claim—and missionary sources also document—that regardless of their economic or social class, Hakka women's feet were never bound, "even if they were daughters of officials." According to one Hakka man in his seventies, "The other Chinese bound women's feet because they wanted to keep them in the house" and also, he grinned, "because it made women walk in a way which is very charming." But even if a Hakka family rose to a position of wealth and power, Hakka claim, daughters were still not required to bind their feet.
________________________________________
¯ 137 ¯
In the early twentieth century, condemned as morally reprehensible, foot-binding became a symbol of the oppression and exploitation of women and of all the ills of Confucian society. Although the Hakka practice of not binding women's feet has obvious practical implications, two people from Shung Him Tong claimed that the Hakka refrained from practicing foot-binding on moral grounds. Twentieth-century Hakka historians such as Luo have helped popularize the Hakka claim that they were the first to oppose foot-binding and to treat women as equals on ethical rather than practical grounds. The fact that Hakka women's feet were never bound has now become a part of the rhetoric used to support the idea that Hakka were ahead of their time and have "always treated women as equal." The official Chinese policy regarding foot-binding one man told me, was inspired by the Hakka. It is also commonly known that the Taipings condemned foot-binding and allowed women in positions of leadership.
In a folk narrative entitled "Why Can Hakka Girls Sing Mountain Songs?" told to Eberhard in Taiwan in the 1970s, a forty-seven-year-old Hakka woman recounted the story of a wealthy governor of Guangdong province who could afford to have whatever he wanted: "In spite of that he never married three wives or [had] four concubines, but lived very well with his old wife." The narrator explained that the man and his wife had "suffered the poverty together" and she had helped earn money for his studies. He never forgot what she had done. As the narrator explained,
This tells us about the origin of the equality of love of the Hakka women, but it also tells us how the equality of sexes … had its origin, and that it is not a hollow word, but that the women with both feet on the ground carry on the problems of the family together with the men. And because Hakka women can live without men, they are not afraid if the men cheat upon them—they just cannot cheat on them…. Hakka are people who had to flee from suppression, and their surroundings are all poor, and so they all have to endure together. If one has to suffer, the others will help him, and so the Hakka girls work just as their men do; in contrast to other women, the Hakka women have as the first ones gained their position, and so they also sing songs that the others do not sing (Eberhard 1974:104–5).
This legend reflects Hakka pride at being "the first ones" to "gain the [higher] position of women" and stresses the point that the position of women is directly linked to their hard work and economic contributions to the family. It also reiterates the point that although most Hakka start out poor, when they become wealthy they still remember what it was like to be poor and for that reason they are better people of higher morals.
________________________________________
¯ 138 ¯
Although the people of Shung Him Tong take pride in the idea of Hakka gender equality, several young women pointed out to me that common practices in the church community do not substantiate this stereotype. As noted in Chapter 4, women appear on the surface to have equal roles in the church—there are always the same number of men and women who officiate, usher, and take collections at the Sunday service, and there are equal numbers of men and women on the church board. But those who are commemorated and best remembered are often men, and men are thought to be far more influential. In practice, like the "official's wife" described above who must cook and clean and be a good conversationalist with her husband's guests, women in Shung Him Tong perform many more of the "service" roles for the church, such as translating, teaching Sunday school, evangelizing, and working as secretaries.
Cantonese women have the reputation, I was told by a young woman in Shung Him Tong, of being among the most attractive and delicate of all Chinese women. Physical attractiveness—often symbolized by small delicate feet—is not a characteristic commonly associated with the popular image of Hakka women. When another young Hakka woman told me that the last two "Miss Hong Kong" beauty contest winners were Hakka, the statement expressed pride as well as her surprise and did not imply that all Hakka women are beautiful. Although people highlight the fact that Cantonese women are weak and frail in comparison to Hakka women, the physique of Hakka women is not portrayed as a positive aesthetic quality but rather as a practical asset.
Hakka are sometimes depicted as having darker skin than other Chinese—an observation used by non-Hakka to support the nineteenth-century claim that Hakka were descendants of hill tribes rather than pure Chinese. The Hakka, however, associate the possible darker skin of some individuals with the extrinsic factor of exposure to sunlight because they spend more time working outside. Conversely, people who work outside are often assumed to be Hakka. Hard work is also used to explain the "looser, more comfortable clothes of the Hakka" and certain culinary differences. "Hakka eat from larger bowls, and eat bigger portions," one Tsung Tsin mission pastor told me, "because they work hard and are very hungry."
Many of the physical stereotypes of Hakka women are in fact more accurate as class or occupational markers than as ethnic ones. Dark skin, comfortable shoes, muscular builds, and the "Hakka hat" are all indications that people do physical labor outdoors, not that they are necessarily Hakka. Common stereotypes found in daily conversation, on television, and in tourist brochures suggest that these images are of the Hakka, and thus reinforce the impression that all Hakka are poor and working class, and that all poor, outdoor workers must be Hakka.
________________________________________
¯ 139 ¯

Lea, Enjoy!

CHC
2/5/12

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 Re: The Three Pillars of Chinese Society – The Tao Foundation – Part 3.
Author: CHUNG Yoon Ngan 
Date:   05-01-12 22:13




雪花秘扇

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KEJut26M0M

If I can find it in the internet I will post it in the Forum

This is 西廂記 (Xi Xiang Ji). I posted to the Forum a few days ago.

http://asiawind.com/forums/read.php?f=11&i=169723&t=169723


CHUNG Yoon-Ngan

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 Re: The Three Pillars of Chinese Society – The Tao Foundation – Part 3.
Author: Lea Tsang 
Date:   05-02-12 04:23

Tin-Kay,

Exactly, the women always get blamed for not producing the right sex offspring when in fact it is determined by the male sperm.

I know a man who went through 3 different "wives" who produced 5 girls before the last one finally had a boy being the 6th child.

Then there are numerous stories of men in HK who have a second wife over the border in Shenzhen.

Lea Tsang

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 Re: The Three Pillars of Chinese Society – The Tao Foundation – Part 3.
Author: yewtai 
Date:   05-02-12 09:40

Baby boy or girl is here you can get, chinese calendar prediction 95% accurate. :)

http://www.chinesefortunecalendar.com/PredictSex.htm

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