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 More Tao!
Author: cheok hong chuan 
Date:   03-14-12 17:32

‘Religion’ and ‘GOD’ is an ‘enigma’ when viewed from the Way of the Tao. Tao likes to leave things ‘at large’ as a ‘mystery’ to reflected and contemplated upon, even though it can never be truly understood. If you find it, it is no longer the Tao. It is the quest and the journey that amounts to the ‘spirituality’ rather than the attainment that counts.

It is the same approach when you walk the Buddhist pathway. You are told that there are metaphorically speaking, 84,000 Dharma doors. At the end all is ‘emptiness’, all is an ‘illusion’! There is no ‘birth’, no ‘death’ and no ‘Nirvana’!

In Confucianism all is based on the honour and shame of ‘filial piety’. Yet, in practice, none can achieve this perfection. It is an ‘ideal’ for who can really claim to be truly filial or pious?

In Christianity, you are supposed to love each other as you love yourself and as you love ‘God’. Yet most Christians only love themselves, and not even God!

‘Religion’ gives rise to false expectations and illusory hopes of faith. But what is ‘faith’ when one can never really be faithful or to trust oneself! What is happiness when one can never know contentment? What is true love when one has an ego? Surely love is when you are selfless in the surrender to the ‘love’. Otherwise how can love be unconditional?

Are we losing the trees from the forest? Unless canopied and subsumed in spirituality how can one be really happy with oneself and all the world around oneself?

Is not the issue how we live happily here and now, through universal spiritual understanding? That we all have equal right to be happy? That we are all in the ‘@!#$’ together?

CHC
15/3/12

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 Re: More Tao!
Author: tom Dragon 
Date:   03-14-12 19:55

From all your writings you seem to describe a kind of pantheism. That's not the Bible says, the Bible God is the only God, other Gods/Tao God should all die, that only leave the Bible God.

All Mediterranian Gods(GrecoRoman,Egyptian, Abrahamic God, Bible God)all have same caracteristics, i.e. they all have great wrath and only think for themself, they are good at war and killing, and they so kill, pillage villages in fact God commands you to do those things, its a great joy to kill. In fact the Bible copies a great deal from Egyptian texts. The Bible God wants to claim superiority to other Gods , but in the final analysis Bible God is a direct copy of Egyptian Gods and worship method involving life after death eternal life etc..thus Bible God belongs to the same vein as the other Mediterranian Gods, they commit the same crime day in and day out.
Next time when ppl ask you who the Abrahamic Bible God is, you can tell them he is no more than a Mediterranian God, "Med.God" for short.

In KaoTai(Caodaism)the Taoist Supreme God "Yu Di" embraces all sort of God/s Saints and teachings under the heaven, hence the saying everyone already know : "Tien Kung you yien," translated as "The Henvenly [old]Man has eye[to see everything under the heaven] as Yu Di is one of the Taoist Supreme Pure and Most High Gods.

Thus the chinese saying: the sky has eye[to see.]

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 Re: More Tao!
Author: cheok hong chuan 
Date:   03-14-12 20:20

Tom,

My father belonged to a sect called 'Tuck Kow Wooi' which is similar to Caodai.

Good, as I have so accounted in earlier blogs; Teen Kong or heavenly (Grand)father, who is not a 'God' by the way, in the Western sense, assesses our spiritual 'filial piety'; and in that sense 'teen yow ghan' the Heaven has eyes.

The spirituality of the Tao is exactly like that; when we say 'Teen Kong poh pee' we mean - enhance our spirituality; simple but profound.

Once you start having ‘figures’ and ‘marks’ and 'God' and ‘doctrines’; we are not at the spiritual abstract of the Tao!

But humans are humans, they seek solace and comfort in the mythical and the supernatural. So as not to take away their 'comforters'; provisionally we allow them to cling to God, Jesus, Buddha, Mohamed etc so that they do not go 'mad', as a placebo effect.

So, in that sense to keep those lacking spiritual wisdom onside, we say there is no God or there is God as the occasion dictates. For, after all, the mysterious Tao cannot be grounded in worldly terms or concepts; we just allow these ideas to run, solely as 'comforters', fully aware that a 'dummy' or 'pacifier' is really nothing at all.

So, you have some Tao in you after all! All things worldly are just 'illusions'!

CHC
15/3/12

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 Re: More Tao!
Author: cheok hong chuan 
Date:   03-14-12 21:42

Further, Tom,

You can see the reason for my efforst in weaning Christians from falsehoods in the Bible.

I hope to make them see look beyond the myths and fairytales and supernatural and simple faith and devotion of a God who is misconceptualised as biased or can treat one person better than another.

As worldly humans we have the concept of God. As spirits there is no God because God as spirit is together in the spirit with othereternal spirits as one. There is no 'God and I' as separate entities. When you are ‘one’, you cannot see ‘another’; and there is no ’another’ to see ‘you’; in fact the ‘you’ cannot see itself. Without a mirror you cannot see ‘yourself’ and when you do, what you see in the mirror is ’inversed' or invertedand is illusory’.

So, in Christianity there is only God when you are a human but when you die and the spirit get to salvation you are saved because you are no longer separated from God; so in that sense upon salvation there is no separate self to see or have a God! So, there is no God in heaven and there is no heaven. An entity on its own has no concept of 'being' or 'place'. there is no "I"!

CHC
15/3/12

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 Re: More Tao!
Author: tom Dragon 
Date:   03-15-12 08:20

Look it's not that complicated, the Med. cultures are not that deep in spirituality like the Orientals and the Chinese, they are very shadow ppl so are their God/s.
the Bible God is all about me me me, " I am", "I am that I am", a very objective and forceful God. There is no need to give their God so much credit.
The Med. ppl would flood to a powerful God that's all they know how;, so they can kill pillage and rape more then got to sit next to God live long eternal life. Their God has no concept of no self egolessness. Bible God is the kind of God of war who feared ppl with iron chariots but would attacked weaker ppl kill them all raped the women and take their land.

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 Re: More Tao!
Author: coyote 
Date:   03-16-12 09:32

"You can see the reason for my efforst in weaning Christians from falsehoods in the Bible."

I am not sure other Christians would approve or not. But for you as a Christian to do that, who am I to disagree? If you have set that down as your purpose at the outset (before your attempt to radically redefine every other religion in the East), you would have saved everybody a great deal of time.

Most literate Chinese have a good sense of what Tao is, if not verbally, then non-verbally - as is manifested in their daily life of relativistic agnosticism. Most of us know too well that there is nothing new under the sun, and that includes what you attempt to preach here, my friend.

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 Re: More Tao!
Author: tom Dragon 
Date:   03-16-12 17:20

[[Most literate Chinese have a good sense of what Tao is]]
You must be kidding!

Most ppl especially chinese don't know what Tao, Taoism is about. and most still think that the Heaven or ShangDi is same as the Med.God/s . That is of course totally bogus.
I have seen a lot of people gone through that stage of similar spiritual search, because their own esteem and confidence had been battered/broken by Xtianity for so long they tend to mix things up or tend to mix-match things to make themself feel good because they are very afraid of oftending the Abrahamic God; because they are that scared and raised up scared, they want power, they want eternal life everlasting life.

Most American chinese and Koreans are so "rice Xtians" that because they are constantly brainwashed by sunday preachers they don't even know what their parents used to know anymore. it's none of C H Chuan's fault if your are born Xtian, but he is intelligent and striving to find out more about his own heritage which is lost for most Asians, unless you live very close proximity to china proper know to read some chinese you have no chance of turning back. But there is a gleamer of hope as the internet is accessible these days, world knowledges can be freely shared via the web.

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 Re: More Tao!
Author: coyote 
Date:   03-19-12 02:44

There is much to be liked about CHC's search for spiritual truth here. While I do not agree with everything he said, I too share the view that he is intelligent and honest - both marks of a truth seeker. As for you, Tommy, I do not know what your problem is. Why do you hate Christianity so much? Do you think that South Korea is any less Korean now that they are some 50% Christian? You fear that our culture will not survive Christianity? The Chinese culture is like a very old but mighty river. Many things have been brought to it, yet it continues to flow. Even extreme maoism could not terminate it or change its course for long. The more I listen to your rant against Christianity, the more I think the Chinese culture will find a way forward. Ye of little faith (to borrow from your Bible) in the Chinese culture. If you care about traditional Buddhism and Taoism and Confucianism, then teach your kids those things. Banning Christianity in your household, for eg., will only inflame the desire for it. Teach inclusion, not hatred.

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 Re: More Tao!
Author: tom Dragon 
Date:   03-19-12 08:06

I don't know what you mean by "hate", did I say I hate Xtians?
what I have said is any believing in Med.God/s is cult or Godcult, a cult that encourages killing rape forceful indoctrination on other countries and exterminate cultures tribes and nations of other ppl; Oriental and Chinese teachings have more depth and much more sofictication than that.
On the other hand you are hated and condemned by Xtians(as such S.Koreans )because you are branded "Pagan" and of different faith. God hates all faith and ppl who don't worship him.
Essentially Xtianity is "banning" you, you are not powerful enough to ban Xtianity so forget about it. Coyote a lot of your suggestion might be grand but afraid could not take hold, as ppl are greedy for eternal life wealth and influence since antiquity nothing can change that.
you mention Buddhism and Taoism and Confucianism, but if you are in the US you will be laugh at, on the other hand it's ok to display bible sayings in stone in the public, I bet Buddhism and Taoism and Confucianism is laugh at in any Xtian or other Godcult country or even forbidden, you can secretly study Oriental philosophy however but in Muslim countries you can be killed or stoned.
Coyote you and CHC are in the same situation of being confused and overly naive and over generalization.

what religion/cult is hating who is very clear since antiquity.

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 be vigilan and watchful
Author: tom Dragon 
Date:   03-19-12 08:27

coyote you are not unique, what you think and suggest, others already had done so some 80 years ago, take the KaoTai(Caodaism)for example, they accepts all path and Saints even the powerful Med.God. under the watchful eye of Heaven.

Coyote since you are so close to VN you should paid them a visit in your vacation time. really.

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 Re: be vigilan and watchful
Author: cheok hong chuan 
Date:   03-19-12 14:51

Tom Dragon,

If you are shy about being a Taoist, Buddhist and Confucianist, or Christianity, why stress us with your sense of insecurity or inferiority complex. Go paddle your own boat and stop telling others not to paddle.

I am a loyal Chinese 1st and foremost. I do not care even if my fellow Chinese believe in Satan worship!

All I am doing is to tell them do whatever they feel comfortable with, but at the same time inculcate the spiritual wisdom of the Way of the Tao in them. Eventually with spiritual wisdom they will get on the right track. Telling them from the start that they are wrong is not going to get us or them anywhere! It is like having a very naughty son who prefers to take drugs and join the gangs. No matter wha,t you show him that you love and care for him. Eventually he will come to his senses, whether after he has gone to jail or suffer the remorse of having killed someone!

I have declared my mission statement and my hand! What is up your sleeve? Are you like me helping your fellow Chinese? Or, are you just the sort of Western father who tells his son that he is useless and tell him to bugger off!

CHC
20/3/12

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 more Thinking
Author: Paul Yih 
Date:   03-19-12 15:22

All of them , almost all had set the sort of "conditions" that is not in the realm of Confucius .. I value more now of the Confucian value, due to it is based on education and "forever learning" We have the Dao to guide us about nature and the natural order -- Yes, Buddha had preach of compassion -- and for all things living ... This is the three major forces ..

The said aspect of the Judeo/Christian values is the whole condemnation of men with original sin -- which from my psychologist perspective -- this guilt trip has done enormous damages .. and very tribal -- and most irrational. However, at a time, these so called religious culture did serve for a time of their era to maintain order -- but not in a evolving world of today - I respect all religious cultures and their internal law and order -- but that cannot be of any more universal value --

Paul Yih

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 Re: more Thinking
Author: cheok hong chuan 
Date:   03-19-12 15:59

Paul Yih,

Confucianism as a moral worldly code is good, of course, but even Confucius practised Tao.

The signs of nature in Tao are just signposts or guideposts; just as Metta or loving-kindness is in Buddhism. Going beyond the beyond in the Ultimate Void or Emptiness that is the mystery of Tao, the signposts there are invisible to and beyond human understanding.

The concept of 'Sin' in Christianity is just a signpost to a worldly mind. In the world of 'duality' and 'relativity' of the human world, there is good or bad or sin or no sin but these are provisional concepts so that the human mind does not go 'mad' from hysterical discomfort of the total fear of the unknown. In Christianity ‘spiritual sin’ is just a concept of being separated from God and ‘worldly sins’ are what keep us to reap what we sow as in karmic consequences. But there is no God to judge! We just reap what we sow as a matter of scientific and karmic fact!

Beyond the human world of worldly understanding, in the eternity of time nothing 'moved'! Nothing can move in eternity for it would take eternity to move eternity. In eternity there is no beginning or ending; otherwise it would not be eternity. What moved or appears to move is just ‘no movement’ in the vastness of eternity!

What appears to be a 'boiling pot' of human existence is just a blip of an illusion; for nothing 'moved' in eternity? We may live a million existences in this realm or a million realms and yet it is just a mere 'passing' that is not worth noting in eternity. Understanding the 'relativity' of even 'relativity' itself takes us beyond the beyond. It is like the endless phantasmagoria of an endless dream. Try understanding the boundless potential of a dream and the vastness of its ‘very real’ illusion. We might even have ‘wet dreams’ and ‘kill’ and yet it is in another ‘world’! It is like all every ‘dreams’ congregating’! Tao is like that. Then we will understand the power of 'wu-wei'!

CHC
20/3/12

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 Re: be vigilan and watchful
Author: coyote 
Date:   03-21-12 05:15

I know Cao dai. Or know of it. No, it seems too regimented for my liking. I love rituals, but only those with deeper roots. I am just too unkempt and rough around the edges for that sort of discipline. Still, thanks for mentioning it for my benefit, Tommy.

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 Re: be vigilan and watchful
Author: tom Dragon 
Date:   03-21-12 07:49

how do you know it's ritual you haven't even been there? maybe it's just teaching/learning session, I thought you said you know Buddhism Taoism Confucianism, all those they have their own ritual that's true but they also very serious about proper attire even have their own dress for members, non member or visitors tourists hang out on the balcony it seems like, they think Buddhism Taoism Confucianism is a game, a lot of ignorant ppl think that way .

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 Re: more Thinking
Author: Paul Yih 
Date:   03-21-12 09:41

wu Wei is in so many ways to guide us to be reflective and introspective at all times.. Regarding human desire. from the Hunan desire, the mindset into doing all things rightly or erroneously have begun. I have all my love and respect regarding Dao. it is one of the major colum and pillar of our culture that have given us all much guidance without mechanistic procedures.. it also compliments the educational values of Confucius where the Learning" is dynamic and perpetual... And learning does come into many forms and by the fostering of learning with the clear mind to observe...thus, it will allow us all the steps toward thinking...and in thinking, as it was stressed by Mencius and later, enriched by Wang Yang Ming in the 1400s..we are capable of both intelligence and wisdom...this duo camara of our mental chambers have all been around.. As in the case to study both humanities and science...set forth by the Grrek scholars...but at the end...in what Wang Yang Ming had said...we are ultimately have to "Filter" our learning and exposure, with his emphasis of the frequently use of the Chinese word of "heart" , as I have tried to "decode" the rich ideas from all these masters, it simply meant - to have a conscience", meaning in our own process of "filtering" or "screening" , by our own conscientious way to think...these thinking process of thinking, rethinking, then to reflect over our past collectively, and also more introspectively... I have the fortune to have the exposure by the values of Paulo Freire, a very natural Brazilian educator, who wrote- pedagogy of the Oppressed and who had re-created the word CONCIENTIZATION, To be able to ask all oppressors ( that is all of us) in to an actionable format..and in the most simplistic way..just like in here, if the words that I am using now, we're to persuade the audience with any ulterior motive, I become the OPPRESSOR. To lead a on intrusive life is to not to subjugate any way or to belittle any one, much more to "objectify" people, like war, to have objectify young people, enticing them into becoming instruments for wars, and more perversely, in the use of war, to make gains, to loot resources of others , and to use war for banking financial gains....as we all have witnessed of the past 200 years of the false world wars and by banks..case in point..The most obvious Opium War and it devastation of all China. Conscientization of Paulo Freire compliments the same values as WYM...and the results of WYM has been "filtering" through in the value formation in China for over 1000 year, based on the time and period of the age of all grat masters..or 500 BC....

I have stared by WuWei, and I will end by the great Dao with its impact to some westerner scholar, academician and thinker such as Carl Rogers ( do your own googling or by Wikipedia), whom I have called the great Zen man..in his time of the post Sigmund Freud era with Freud psychosexual issues, his minor obsession of the human desire and libidinal/ animalistic nature, regarded by Freud as the often uncontrolabe sexual and animalistic urges...we human do harm.. In a much wider context, by our shared observation of some of the most ignorant passage in all scrptures,, where the entire events of nature of. En and our sexual values have been most obscured...as in much of my postings about the non therapeutic use of PSYCHOANLYSIS of Freud had further perversed by his own blood nephew and his daughter...where Edward Barnays had used the Freudian psychoanalysis, into the arena of mass control and mass manipulation..with the most cruel outcome to have the total perversion into making a false democracy...to have compsumption and to meet all human desires and wants by way of comsumption and the vulgar form of false democracy...the materialistic capitalism..as we now can witness all how this regime influence by one man had taken the entire nation to become so marginalized by this PSYCHOLOGICAL PERVERSION.

Rogers's counseling therapy cannot be taught, but yes, emulated...
"unconditional positive regards..."
"Clint centered therapy"
The key wors of ..be authentic, congruence,,natural...

in my observation, the teachings of both Rogers and Paulo Freire can be and must be exposed to the contemporary Chinese educators today...

education can not br like "banking" drawers,
Education must be dialectic and nit daidactic (boring lecturers)
education must be interactive and dynamic...thus this will foster changes ans so..progress

In so many words, I have found my mentors and counselors who have guided me not so far from the symbiosis of Zen/chan and Dao...with clarity of a self examined life by Socrates and a studious pursuit of knowledge by Confucius, by Mencius and with richer exposure by WYM...and The human compassion well taught and expressed by Christ and Buddha ...and the many infinitely wiseman and women....from all cultures and ethnic origins that had enriched me more of my own humanity with humility.... Be that Twain, Dickens, Duma, Hugo, Cervantes, musicians...thinkers... Entertainers...words and melodies that can continue to extract more human side of us...activating the affective domain side of our Psyche.....in order to allows to make good and to foster more CONSCIENTIZATION of our own specie called homo Sapien , coming from the word SAPIENZIA. Mixing in with Latin and Grrek...both meant WISDOM..

Paul Yih

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 Re: be vigilan and watchful
Author: tom Dragon 
Date:   03-21-12 11:14

There had been in mordern history a lot of "hybrid" promoters be they Orientals or Westerners, both in Asia and abroad, they pretend to mingle or mentioning some Asian philosophy yet deep down they preach Xtianity and their Med. God.
The result is not pretty, some Asians even burned all books that have chinese characters and started using Romanized alphabets. Some ppl would love to deceive and some ignorant bunch loved to be deceived because they think they can have some gains to make.

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 Re: be vigilan and watchful
Author: Paul Yih 
Date:   03-21-12 11:40

Intentionally or not, the Jesuits and the Catholics had totally westernized the Vietnamese language -- and delinking them from the Chinese -- But on the other hand, how Koreans had severed their attachment to the Han characters was entirely done on their own .... So, there you go ...

Paul Yih

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 Re: be vigilan and watchful
Author: tom Dragon 
Date:   03-21-12 12:07

not true, the N.Koreans are prochina while the S.Koreans are pro bible-West.

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 Re: be vigilan and watchful
Author: tom Dragon 
Date:   03-21-12 12:09

but you are right the catholics and jesuits screwed up the chinese or any chinese influence real bad. chowlee's Med.God has the upper hand.

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 Re: be vigilan and watchful
Author: Paul Yih 
Date:   03-21-12 12:14

I am speaking their use of the Chinese Han characters --- not about political affiliation ...

Paul Yih

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 Re: be vigilan and watchful
Author: tom Dragon 
Date:   03-21-12 12:20

some koreans still can read chinese, so are some VN. why? because they have to, since they are close proximity with china .

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 Re: be vigilan and watchful
Author: Paul Yih 
Date:   03-21-12 12:25

Also, most of the Asian educated group do know Han character -- and that is totally natural -- Han character and calligraphy were part of the educational process ..

Paul Yih

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 Re: be vigilan and watchful
Author: tom Dragon 
Date:   03-21-12 12:26

but you are also wrong, political tactic is what the Med.God is about, to annihilate enemy first by force if not use soft politic like religious conquest i.e. have them affiliate with the bible God, all political motivated, one leads to the another, they more in steps. it had always been like that for last 2000yrs.

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 Re: be vigilan and watchful
Author: tom Dragon 
Date:   03-21-12 12:28

you must be bluffing! if what you say is true, this site would be overwhelmed by calligraphy enthousiasts around the world!

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 Re: be vigilan and watchful
Author: tom Dragon 
Date:   03-21-12 14:06

am talking about preserving own culture and language and writing system and you are pretending to care about some prodigal sons since you are a reverend. how ironic.
well don't worry about those SOB prodigal sons, when Jesus Xrist returns he will machine gun down those SOB with his semi-automatics, he 'd line them up and kill them all like the O'gangsters.

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 Re: be vigilan and watchful
Author: tom Dragon 
Date:   03-21-12 14:12

I guess you haven't seen nothing about the killing rampages of the American soldiers in MyLai ..in Afhangnistan..in Iraq. Just kill them all SOBs.

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 Re: be vigilan and watchful
Author: tom Dragon 
Date:   03-21-12 14:19

Doing calligraphy? lololol you are such a joker you made my day Paul!
Jesus Xrist when he returns he will show you the correct way to do calligraphy!

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 Re: be vigilan and watchful
Author: Paul Yih 
Date:   03-21-12 15:56

This arrogance, war arrogance, power arrogance, and the deception into making young folks to become killers -- and to just to feed off a few of the war industry and its usury bankers will be known as a crime -- in the coming years -- and yes, the entire George Bush and his cabinet can be prosecuted for the wrongful killing in Iraq, or for that same matter , for Obama into Afghanistan -- I am not for violence, but I have made that vow, you enter my country with military boots -- I will take you down and I meant every word I have said in here -- and namely the entire Latin America and the illegal soldiers on their soil -- take them down .. That is my vigilant watch, and as a US citizen, I probably saving tax money for those mercenaries like Black water and more .

Paul Yih

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 Re: be vigilan and watchful
Author: Paul Yih 
Date:   03-21-12 15:57

What is wrong with calligraphy -- ? Are you Chinese or what are you ? :) I began to wonder if you are not some of those hybrid freak from Vietnam :)

Paul Yih

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 Re: More Tao!
Author: cheok hong chuan 
Date:   03-21-12 21:03

Coyote,

You sound a sensible chap unlike Tom Dragon, who can only indulge in meaningless discursive senseless rambling.

Let me make it clear - my mother was a Guanyin devotee although she had a Catholic Convent education.

My father was a member of the Tuck Kow Wooi - Moral Uplifting Society [which was founded in Swatow - which believed in the 5 Sages - Taoism, Buddhism, Confucianism, Christianity and Islam.

So I was brought up on the first 4 listed above, because in Malaysia you are forbidden by law to practise or study Islam if you are not a Moslem. Yes. I am a baptised Jesuit Catholic.

I am in practice, in main a Taoist-Buddhist, although in terms of meditation I should say I am a Zen Buddhist.

Just for the understanding of forumites who think that I am just a blabbering fool; I am considered at tertiary level to be a Buddhist Scholar, a Biblical Scholar and to a lesser extent an expert on Taoism. It is a very simple matter of the forum setting up an independent exam session to grade me against Tom Dragon on Christianity, Buddhism and Taoism; so that people can know he is just a stupid fool when it comes to spiritual matters.

Because as a Taoist-Buddhist I do not believe in Religion or God or the supernatural or the supramundane; I have personally excised out of Christian Spirituality the false Western teachings or concepts of God and Christ as a Redeemer. Let me call this True Christianity in a Modern context. Since some Chinese still need to depend on a religion or a God, I was hoping to wean them down to a level where Christianity becomes a spiritual practice.

In the same vein I encourage Buddhists to kill Buddha or Taoists to kill Lao-Tzu. In spirituality there are no externalities. The journey is personal and within. It is a journey where you will not get anywhere until you realise that you are nobody going nowhere; as in 'wu-wei'

CHC
22/312

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 A test for you
Author: coyote 
Date:   03-22-12 02:11

I have enjoyed reading your posts, CHC. You said:

"I am considered at tertiary level to be a Buddhist Scholar, a Biblical Scholar and to a lesser extent an expert on Taoism. It is a very simple matter of the forum setting up an independent exam session to grade me against Tom Dragon"

An exam? That seems an awful fun proposition. Of course I am not qualified to test you. But may we not look on this as a small game so that your readers may know you a bit more, and learn through your reply? Here goes:

1) As a Buddhist/Taoist/Christian, what is your opinion on the after-life? Do you think there is existence beyond death?

2) How do you envision this netherworld existence? It is similar in scope and concept to which religion?

Tom. Don't forget to put in a post. It is a test of CHC against TOM for the edification of the forum.

Good luck!

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 Re: A test for you
Author: cheok hong chuan 
Date:   03-22-12 20:11

Coyote,

It is a difficult question as it requires an understanding whether one is replying as a human being or no being. But let us just deal in the spirituality of things.

Beyond 'mind' there is no existence. As in philosophy we say - 'I' 'think' therefore 'I' 'am'!

If you are not human there is no God or religion. Where there is no 'ego' or 'self' we go beyond the beyond; beyond the world of karma. Let me explain in Taoist terms, since I have declared my hand that I am a Taoist-Buddhist.

Wu-wei sounds very complicated and it is. It is literally translated as ‘action in non-action’. Let me give a short cut lesson that most Taoists take a lifetime to understand.

I was ‘lucky’! In a manner of speaking! I suffered many near death incidents. Right from birth! I was born a blue baby [hole in the heart] and my mother was told that I only had a week to live! I will not retrace my life story of all my near-death incidents. Unless you have suffered death or near-death you will not appreciate that life or karma was meant to be. Destiny was meant to be. What you see as ‘action’ was in fact ‘non-action’ at all!

And when you do take ‘action’, the only ‘action’ that really counts or changed your karma were those that you took selflessly, without an ‘ego’, without any thought for self gain or advantage. You are fearless only when you have no fear of self dying. You only truly love when you were prepared to sacrifice your life and everything for the one that you loved. You are only truly humble when you have no pride or ego or worry about what others think. When you take action in this sense you are not really taking action. You have lost the ‘you’ that is taking any action. Therefore there is non-action by ‘you’ since there is no ‘you’!

When you are selfless and have no ego of self you become a ‘nobody’. Since you are not worried or care for what you are or where you are going or how rich you are or whether you have status; you do not care where you are or where you will be or where you are going to; you are in that sense not going ‘anywhere’. You are ‘nobody’ going ‘nowhere’ as they say in Zen Buddhism!

Action in non-action comes naturally when you understand from the Heart Sutra that life is just an illusion, like a dream, like morning dew! That when we die, we die. Even the rebirth of karmic residue is not us. That rebirthed ‘person’ thinks that it is him or her and has no recollection of past lives and rebirths. When you reached Nirvana and has no more karmic residue like a Buddha, there is no more karmic rebirths [in the various 'realms' of 'existence' of self-ego]. Then you go back to the original state of what we Buddhists call “Just Is” or “Thusness”. In Thusness there is no movement, no action, just non-action. Action only happens with karma. So, when you have action think in terms of karma so that you go back to a state of ‘non-action’ that is “Thusness”. Thusness is neither ‘existence’ or ‘non-existence’ or not ‘existence’ or not ‘non-existence’. Thusness without sense of being or ego or self is only at repose [non-action] and having a dream where in the dream it has a self and an ego and karmic action!

CHC
23/3/12

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 Re: A test for you
Author: coyote 
Date:   03-23-12 08:03

Thanks for playing! But I have to be on the road soon, so I will make a quick response...

I prefer modesty (though I fail at that.) I distrust this talk of no ego. No ego, no I, then no you, no he or she or it. This gives rise to man dreaming the world scenario which is ultimately self-centered and self-limiting. (This is where the peasant becomes superior to the bloodless, possibly heartless, scholar...)

According to you, the Buddhist position is this:

1) That when we die, we die.

2) Then you go back to the original state of what we Buddhists call “Just Is” or “Thusness”

This annoys me. The Buddhist tells me you die then you die. (A hard materialist also tells me that.) Then this same Buddhist says well, wait a second, there is actually something called "thusness".

The Buddhists say a lot and end up saying nothing.

The reverse is more admirable....

The Tao way of saying little ends up illuminating a great deal more.

I would love to talk to you more on this. An interesting and illuminating subject for me....

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 Re: More Tao!
Author: tom Dragon 
Date:   03-23-12 10:12

I am considered at tertiary level to be a Buddhist Scholar,
a Biblical Scholar and
to a lesser extent an expert on Taoism.]] lol
I give you the first and later but a Bible scholar? lol lol lol who you want to kid?
you are just a wanna be new-age Logos -ist and all that Bible lying crap nothing more than a direct copy of a Westerner Redneck subordinate subaltern.

But not your fault, your flock is used to all of that Med.God Abrahamic God crap, you have to give them what they want to hear but don't have to, you are smarter much more intelligent than them little skippies ;they are just another victim or the last remnants of the Western onslaught in term of cultural rape and mind rapes though fast growing in number, you want to right the wrong, you are slowly steering them to the right way of thinking, you are seeking a way out for them and that is very good I do commend you for that! any time of the day.

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 Re: More Tao!
Author: tom Dragon 
Date:   03-23-12 12:11

whatever spiritual "mess" you are in you better come clean with your skippish pupils tell them the hard truth about the bible violence and that war-monger Med God and their bloddy karma of killing multiple nations stealing other people land, otherwise you are no more than that subaltern Lieutenant Bale killing ppl without blinking an eye not with machine guns but with lying words from the bible. Logo-ist, preachers, priests only tell lies they think they are cool but very ignorant, yet who knows maybe you will be different though it remains to be seen. sometimes one must have some benefit of a doubt in you.

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 Re: More Tao!
Author: cheok hong chuan 
Date:   03-23-12 13:52

Tom Dragon,

You ended with - "you want to right the wrong, you are slowly steering them to the right way of thinking, you are seeking a way out for them and that is very good I do commend you for that! Any time of the day."

Yes, Yes, Yes! It is all wrong the killing by the Christians in the past. Worse all the Christians killing each other in the American Civil War and in Europe in the two world wars! All praying to the same God for righteousness! All bullshit! The Bible said - Do Not Kill! If Jesus preached violence he would have teamed up with Barnabas against the Romans! The Old Testament is mainly myths and stories made up for illiterates and humans afraid of death and the unknown. There was no Exodus nor did Moses write the Torah. The Jews belief in a bodily resurrection is a sham! Why did you think Jesus continually told the Pharisees off! Cleared them out of the Temple for believing in animal sacrifices! Nicodemus could not understand what Jesus said about salvation in the 'spirit' not of the human self; for flesh is flesh and spirit is spirit. So, we can just forget about the Old Testament [except for the Ten Commandments basically]. For Jesus said only the [wisdom of the] Prophets and the law shall remain.

Christians are just as bad because of a Greco-Jew called Paul; who had never even met Jesus. The Greco-Roman religious thought made the Christian God look like Zeus and even supported the practice of slavery! All absolutely wrong and bullshit! Then we have all these churches like synagogues and statues when Jesus told us to prayer in secret! Then this ‘buying of indulgences’ when Jesus said we should not have an ‘ego’ for ‘ego’ is the cause of Sin [separation from God]; that when we give to charity we should not let the left hand know what the right hand is doing! That we should not prayer by meaningless repetitive incantations by public display but by quiet contemplation, for God knows our thoughts. Then we have this thing about only Christians going to Heaven! How about all the good Jews before Christ? How about my good Hakka ancestors? Was Christ himself a Christian? All he said was I am the Son of my Father in Heaven. Did he preach about God? No! He told us to pray to "Our Father, Who art in Heaven, hallowed be thy name etc." He told us the spiritual journey was that of a Prodigal Son; that the Father came for Mercy [and as a Good Shepherd to search for his ‘lost sheep’ and not to judge! He told us judgement was in the form of ‘you reap what you sow’! He told us until we pay off the ‘last penny’ we will be going up and down ‘Jacob's Ladder’, not quite getting to heaven. He told us that we will come back in future worldly lives through our evil worldly ego and our seven evil companion spirits - the six senses and the consciousness. He did not say that he came to redeem our sins [for that would contradict what he said about reaping what you sow]. Basically he came to show our 'spirit' the way home; for we are the Holy Trinity - the Father and the sons, all in the spirit. In our worldly self and ego we are the sons-of-Adam, the Adam who was tempted and tasted the Tree of Knowledge, caught in the web of deceit of Satan. Was there a Virgin Birth? No! Why? Jesus would have told us so. But like Jesus, in the spirit, we are all of virgin birth, because we were not created by a God [despite what the Old Testament says]; we are like out of the stem cell of a Father Spirit - that is what is meant by virgin birth. Did Christ resurrect from the dead? No! Jesus was bodily killed by the Jews but the eternal spirit of Christ like the eternal spirit in us will never die. How can something eternal die? There was no bodily resurrection. Why? Jesus himself said so to Nicodemus – the flesh is flesh and spirit is spirit. Jesus died and appeared to us as Christ in the ‘spirit’. Our eternal spirit is 'lost' in this human existence; but once we clear our debts [commonly called sins] we can then [in the spirit] be released from this karmic 'prison' and go home to heaven, get to the top of Jacob's ladder and knock on the gates of Heaven. When the Father should ask - Who is there? Remember to reply - It is you Father! For Adam was lost because he had a separate self-ego. Sin in the spirit is being separate from God, by having a self-ego apart from God. But there is no God [if there is no human ego] and no Father when there is no separation! There is just the Father as the Spirit!

CHC
24/3

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 Re: More Tao!
Author: Chow Lee 
Date:   03-23-12 14:14

You have such hateful opinions of that which is perceived as Western while not even making mention of the tragedies in Asia, afflicted on Asians, by Asians.

I find that very shallow.

Chow Lee

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 Re: More Tao!
Author: cheok hong chuan 
Date:   03-23-12 14:42

@!#$ Weak Mind Gweilo Chow Lee is back!

I thought we sent you back to Yankee forum land? Since you have admitted you are 'gweilo', why bother to hang around in AsiaWind? Note "Asia" adjectively! Or, maybe, you cannot speak or read English?

Did the Chinese go around colonising and killing others? They killed each other yes! Or foreigners in defence of the homeland, yes!

You uneducated imbecile and ignoramus! Shame on you! Go and @!#$ and @!#$ in your numbskull brains!

In defence of the Chinese!

Pox to all egoistic self-condenscending Gweilos and may they all burn in Hell since they have made it Hell on Earth, for the others!

I know which side I am on; do you?

A loyal Chinese.

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 Re: More Tao!
Author: tom Dragon 
Date:   03-23-12 16:00

not even making mention of the tragedies in Asia, afflicted on Asians, by Asians.]]
yes there are killings but not quite Asian but more like an Arab , who killed a bunch of Jews in Toulouse. Godcults kill.

Do you understand Karma?

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 Re: More Tao!
Author: tom Dragon 
Date:   03-24-12 08:11

You don't seem to understand, Jesus' father namely Yahweh, has bad karma. Is that clear?

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 Re: More Tao!
Author: Paul Yih 
Date:   03-24-12 13:02

I am not sure his father knows anything about sex -- see what kind of old women he had given to Abraham :) and what sort of genetic group they have produced :) lol

Paul Yih

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 Re: More Tao!
Author: FM Liew 
Date:   03-24-12 16:04

I know back those days, people living there promote and practise incest.
It's all written in the Bible...

Excerpt:
Incest
Genesis 19:30-38 And Lot went up out of Zoar, and dwelt in the mountain, and his two daughters with him; for he feared to dwell in Zoar: and he dwelt in a cave, he and his two daughters. And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth: Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose. And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father. And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose. Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father. And the first born bare a son, and called his name Moab: the same is the father of the Moabites unto this day. And the younger, she also bare a son, and called his name Benammi: the same is the father of the children of Ammon unto this day.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Incest and Rape
2 Samuel 13:10-16 And Amnon said unto Tamar, Bring the meat into the chamber, that I may eat of thine hand. And Tamar took the cakes which she had made, and brought them into the chamber to Amnon her brother. And when she had brought them unto him to eat, he took hold of her, and said unto her, Come lie with me, my sister. And she answered him, Nay, my brother, do not force me; for no such thing ought to be done in Israel: do not thou this folly. And I, whither shall I cause my shame to go? and as for thee, thou shalt be as one of the fools in Israel. Now therefore, I pray thee, speak unto the king; for he will not withhold me from thee. Howbeit he would not hearken unto her voice: but, being stronger than she, forced her, and lay with her. Then Amnon hated her exceedingly; so that the hatred wherewith he hated her was greater than the love wherewith he had loved her. And Amnon said unto her, Arise, be gone. And she said unto him, There is no cause: this evil in sending me away is greater than the other that thou didst unto me. But he would not hearken unto her.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pedophilia
Numbers 31:17-18 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

Is that the holy sex book?

King Tutankhamun married his own sister..same for his parents and perhaps the entire population..
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1251731/King-Tutankhamuns-incestuous-family-revealed.html

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 Re: More Tao!
Author: Paul Yih 
Date:   03-24-12 21:37

more and more of the many Hebrew values were hybrid of those of the Egyptian and also of the Babylonians and others, but they have made them more perverse...

Paul Yih

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 Re: More Tao!
Author: tom Dragon 
Date:   03-26-12 20:23

To Paul and FM ,
There are ppl who dream of sitting on the right side of God, like Jesus for example, since Jesus is a Jew.
and then there are ppl who dream of(or just happy)to sit on the left side of God, they are the foreigner renegades , non Jews folks like Rice, Garry Loke, ppl who yearn for a quick rapture. These folks do the dirty job of God, they are God's "lefty", they sit on the left side of God.
The thing is, wonder what would God do with those who sit on his left side, those non Jew renegades.

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 Re: More Tao!
Author: coyote 
Date:   03-27-12 14:54

Yes, those were difficult passages. The radical Christians would do well to remember those OT passages, next time they are inclined to call the prophet Mohammed a "pedophile". (IMO, lets go easy on the happenings thousands of years ago in some nowhere deserts. Morals have evolved over time. For us and for them too.)

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 Some thought
Author: coyote 
Date:   03-27-12 15:37

I know there is a lot of bickering directed at you now. When you get a chance, lets do this a bit more. (Not as a trivial test, but as a discourse between genitalmen.)

You said "Thusness is neither ‘existence’ or ‘non-existence’ or not ‘existence’ or not ‘non-existence’"

Sounds similar to Tao, in that Tao is everywhere, but also unseen and cannot be described.

This approaches "mystery" at the heart of all genuine religious experience. The sense of awe that one feels, a sense of one's own very limited nature.

There is consensual reality. A reality that we share as sentient conscious people. It is a reality conveyed to us by our senses. The senses tell us what is an apple, what is sky, what is future, or past, and what is time etc. To deny the possibility of mystery, is to affirm that there is nothing which may exist beyond our senses.

Death is a cessation of our senses as we know them.

We cannot begin to fathom death, until we see how our senses have kept us caged. Tao (in Tao Te Ching) and Zen Buddhism are both successful in this, to a significant degree. But they are by no means exhaustive. If you are to get to your spiritual mountain top, it is important to shed the labels, as in saying that all faiths are one, but there is , I think, much more to this. Much more....

Shamanism has always held special interest for me. It pre-dates Taoism and was once prevalent in the land of our ancestors. Much has been made of Shamanism during 70's drug culture. But much of that has been wrong headed. Shamanism isn't about drugs or culture or counter culture, it is about exploration into alternative reality. What shows up the limits of our perception better than the presentation of an alternative?

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 Re: Some thought
Author: cheok hong chuan 
Date:   03-27-12 16:42

Coyote,

There is nothing superior to the Way of the Tao. Because in Tao we say that if something can be conceptualise with the worldly mind or knowledge, then it is no longer the Tao! This means that Tao must be realised by spiritual wisdom and in the 'spirit'. The infinity beyond human understanding cannot be grasped or conceptualised by a human worldly mind. This is wonderful, because we do not get stifled by human concepts of God, religion and sin and anything 'worldly'. Because Tao has no form we say that it is 'at large' everywhere, within and without, because in infinity it is in infinite dimensions and beyond time, past, present or future.

In Buddhism it is metaphorically referred to as the Ultimate Reality or the Ultimate Emptiness or the Ultimate Void. In Buddhism we also say something is not within human conception or perception by loosely saying that it is it is neither existence or not existence or no existence or no non-existence.

Confucianism which is more down to Earth speaks of a righteous or spiritual mind within the ideal of filial piety to ones' parents and ancestors in the 'spirit'.

In Christianity we have the beginning was the WORD and the WORD was 'Logos', but the corrupt Western gweilo insecure mind had to have a GOD and a religion, because they want to be worldly beings achieving immortality. Strictly speaking, in Christianity there should be no churches or priests or any prayer other than the Lord's prayer or public congregation or images or idols or statues or symbols or the written word [God does not write as a human; divine inspiration is in divine form]. In Taoism when you achieve immortality you are still 'grasping' and 'clinging' to worldly concepts and therefore still not in the Tao!

Tao existed from the start, even at the time of the shamans of the Red Indians and early primitive tribes. Tao was a mystery then as it is now. Those days before education and civilisation and language; Tao was then called the Great Spirit in the Sky and when humans die they return to the Great Spirit in the Sky. Simple but equally profound. No God and no religion!

CHC
28/3/12

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