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 Jonathan Spence on Ricci map
Author: SL Lee 
Date:   08-25-10 08:38

http://www.loc.gov/loc/lcib/1005/map.html The Many Facets of Matteo Ricci
1602 World Map Created in Six Stages
By DONNA URSCHEL

[May 2010. Jonathan Spence of Yale university gavea lecture about the map, how it was drawn in 6 stages.]
.....

The first stage took place from 1583 to 1584, known as the southeast China pioneering days. Ricci wrote that he had brought with him to China a one-sheet Western map, which he called the “universal map of the world.” The map was written “in our Westerner’s writing,” with Western projections and with China to one side.

Ricci displayed this Western map in a small house rented by the Jesuits. The map was an object of curiosity with the Chinese who came by the Jesuit house. Some of the visiting Chinese said the map didn’t seem to fit any of their ideas of how the world should look. They wanted to know if Ricci could place the titles of the countries into Chinese characters so they could get a better sense of the names. Ricci agreed.

The second stage was Ricci’s attempt to make a Chinese rendering of the Western names. Spence said, “Ricci did not have good Chinese at this time. He certainly wasn’t doing a fluid rewrite. He must have had help.”

Ricci also needed help with astronomy, claiming he was mediocre with math. He was reliant on the books he brought with him from Italy.

In his journal, Ricci said the map was larger than the one he brought with him, but still one sheet and small in size. The map remained simple, with 30 or 40 place names that were translated into Chinese. Also, China was placed a little more to the center of the map.

Quoting Ricci’s journal, Spence said, “The main importance of this map is that it helped the Chinese see how very far away we were, how far we traveled to come and work with them. When they saw the huge expanse, the Chinese were much less nervous of the scale and nearness of the Western states.”

More and more visitors came to see the map, and friends started making copies that were circulated widely.

The third stage occurred when Ricci was in Nanjing, where scholars asked him to make a map twice the size of his previous one. Spence said, “The place names begin to increase in number, and now everything on it is in Chinese characters.”

The fourth stage was the production of the 1602 Beijing edition, which is the famous map that was on display at the Library. Spence said Ricci doubled the size of the previous map, creating a six-panel version. The 30 to 40 place names increased to more than 1,000, and China is displayed at the center of the map.

Also, Ricci wrote descriptions on the map of the various areas, as well as reflections on religious life, studying cartography and on the contact between China and the West. About Europe, Ricci wrote, “This area of Europe has 30 or more countries and all follow the ways of kings … .” The one European product he talks about is the “excellent wine from grapes” from Italy (not France). At this stage, the map was so large (5.5 feet high by 12.5 feet long) and detailed that it took an entire year for the wood blocks to be carved.

During stage five, from 1602 to 1605, the map was pirated, with printers and others making unofficial copies and selling them widely. At one point, an eight-panel version of the map was developed and distributed.

Spence said stage five was also known for a color-tinted version. In his journal, Ricci said a court eunuch made a color-tinted edition of the map and gave it to Emperor Wanli in 1605. “The tinted version so pleased the emperor that he wanted another one. Then being emperor, he asked for 12 more. And then he asked for 12 on silk,” Spence said.

Stage six was when the tinted version became common in China. Many of the wood blocks, however, had been damaged in the great floods of 1607 and others were lost or damaged during the clean-up operations. A smaller version of the map was made that could be displayed more easily.

In the audience question-and-answer segment, Jay I. Kislak, who donated his collection of books, manuscripts, historic documents, artifacts, maps and art of the Americas to the Library, asked Spence what happened to the thousands of copies of the Ricci map that circulated in China. Spence speculated that self-censorship or anti-Catholic sentiment caused them to be discarded. But all in all, Spence said, “We don’t know. No one has found any copies.”

=============
My comment -

There is no explanation on :
* why the map has so little information on Europe;
* why there is no Papal State, Florence, Tuscany.... :
* why China is so detailed in place names related to Yongle/Xuande
* the statement "some 70 years after the first relationship between China and Europe", which clearly put the completion of the map in 1410s-1420s.

The map is essentially a map drawn by Chinese in Yongle/Xuande era, not by European contemporaries of Ricci. Ricci might have brought an Ortelius atlas to China and added a few names to it. However, this geography of the 1602 map is mostly not based on Ortelius map. It has to come from Chinese source, which means the Chinese knew about the three big oceans, the Americas and part of Australia. Ming Chinese in Yongle/Xuande time had circumnavigated the world. They surveyed the coastline of western Americas, particularly California peninsula.


--------------

SL Lee

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 Re: Jonathan Spence on Ricci map
Author: tom Dragon 
Date:   08-25-10 14:33

* why the map has so little information on Europe;]]]
Probably because the Europe in Ortelius' maps was also devoid of city name and information except the country name.

* why there is no Papal State, Florence, Tuscany....]]]
The Papal State did not include the republic of Florence, it includes Rome.

nevertheless Ricci might have used another name to replace Tuscany who knows, but I don't think it's relevant or upsetting to the point of tipping over the table, but you think it's upsetting. but what if Ricci chose to leave it out?

In any case the missing of Florence should not be upsetting, because Ricci likely intended it to be left out. because all the naming were put on the map by no other than by Ricci himself.
Of the ten places or so on Italy, none of them were written by a chinese, they were all put on by Ricci, how do one know, because the accent is heavily Italian. Example, Venice would be "Venezha" etc.

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 Re: Jonathan Spence on Ricci map
Author: SL Lee 
Date:   08-25-10 14:46

> * why the map has so little information on Europe;]]]
> Probably because the Europe in Ortelius' maps was also devoid of city name
> and information except the country name.

A European world map only has country names for Europe but details of Yongle's northern campaign and southwest China? Think.


> * why there is no Papal State, Florence, Tuscany....]]]
> The Papal State did not include the republic of Florence, it includes Rome.
>
Wrong. Tuscany and Florence were more important than Rome at that time.

> nevertheless Ricci might have used another name to replace Tuscany who
> knows, but I don't think it's relevant or upsetting to the point of tipping
> over the table, but you think it's upsetting. but what if Ricci chose to
> leave it out?

An American would not leave out New York City and Washington DC in a world map, no matter how abbreviated it is. Ricci could not have left out Tuscany, Florence and Papal State. He was a JESUIT to evangelize China, to show off how advance European cartography was!


Read the statement above Spain. It tells exactly when the original information was from. 70 some years after the first official contact with China and Europe, which was 1342-47 when Pope Benedict XII sent a legation of 50 priests to stay Beijing. Count 70 years from then. It is Zheng He's era.

If the map was drawn by Ricci and contemporaries, count 70 years back from 1570, it was the Ming maritime ban. No contact at all with anyone.

This statement is obviously not written by Ricci. Everything else is trivial.

--------------

SL Lee

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 Re: Jonathan Spence on Ricci map
Author: tom Dragon 
Date:   08-25-10 16:28

The fourth stage was the production of the 1602 Beijing edition]]]]

ok now you recognize that there is some "trivia" so lets skip that.
now let say the date between the third and the fourth stage is around 1600 instead of 1602 for simplification sake. if one counts 70years backward that would place the date to 1530, by then China had already been reopened to Western trade, as the trading route is forceably reopened by the Portuguese explorer Jorge Álvares lands on Lintin Island in the Pearl River estuary. This is followed up by Rafael Perestrello, a cousin of Christopher Columbus, who commands an expedition from Portuguese Malacca in 1516 to land on the shores of mainland southern China, in order to trade with Chinese merchants at Guangzhou.
So that's what Ricci was referring to, that contact was established some 70years ago and that some Jesuits missionary must have slipped through and arrived in Southern China by that time frame of say from 1517 to 1530.
Lets say during that time of 1500 to 1530 china still imposed the maritime band, i.e. chinese sea boats couldn't go abroad or non-existant, it doesn't mean Western country from Europe could not sail to china to do trade. that's what happened from 1516 on, Europeans landed in china en mass to make deals and trades, that's what Europeans explorers vied for in the first place-to be able to make trade with China.

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 Re: Jonathan Spence on Ricci map
Author: SL Lee 
Date:   08-25-10 16:31

The word "tong" means official diplomatic relationship, not counting civilian visits like Marco Polo.

The lifting of maritime ban was the first year of Long Qing (1567). Nothing before then should be consider official. The trading through Manila-Acapulco was considered illegal by the imperial court.
--------------

SL Lee

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 Re: Jonathan Spence on Ricci map
Author: tom Dragon 
Date:   08-25-10 17:00

finally if Ricci had really seen a yuan ming map, or that his map was originally a yuan ming map, then the city ofLyon would be spelled just like this one on this map shown here: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bc/Zhenghemap.jpg

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 Re: Jonathan Spence on Ricci map
Author: tom Dragon 
Date:   08-25-10 17:01

city of Lyon that is

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 Re: Jonathan Spence on Ricci map
Author: SL Lee 
Date:   08-25-10 17:36

I don't want to comment on this map. Ming's map obviously has to incorporate Yuan's information. That is when the Avignon papalcy in France, not in Vatican.

However, knowing Ricci's map was drawn in 1424-1435, then one can draw some conclusion about the 1418 map. Note California is an island on 1418 map.

--------------

SL Lee

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 Re: Jonathan Spence on Ricci map
Author: tom Dragon 
Date:   08-25-10 21:51

yeah Now that I have gone through the Ricci map, I can see how Mo Yi kung have incorporated mostly Ricci's information so to update his map according to the Ricci map and then showed it to the qing emperor. but the map does not show Avignon, but Lyon.

[[[knowing Ricci's map was drawn in 1424-1435, then one can draw some conclusion about the 1418 map. Note California is an island on 1418 map.]]

I can not guess what you are trying to say. can you elaborate, since you have seen some 300maps maybe you can tell if the 1418 map was a copy of an European map?

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 Re: Jonathan Spence on Ricci map
Author: SL Lee 
Date:   08-25-10 22:35

I will not comment any more on the 1418 map. You make your own judgment by comparing it to Ricci's map, which I date it, with multiple evidence, to 1424-1435.
--------------

SL Lee

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 Re: Jonathan Spence on Ricci map
Author: tom Dragon 
Date:   08-25-10 23:02

the 1418 map could be fake , it incorporate the physical map of the French map, and then incorporated Ricci's informaiton. At least it seems that way. but the naming of Frank not France make it an earlier map.

Lyon is my mistake, it's not Lyon, I read it wrong, it should be Fu-An in chinese character for Frank in the place of France, Frank is an older name for France, so it could be dated Yuan. XiFan stands for Spain. so the accent on that map is very weird and unique. so the map could be genuine who knows.

I don't know why Duval world map shows california as an island. the map is some 60 years after Ricci's map, it should be better mapped. Duval's map has a very detailed work on the Hudson bay though.

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 Re: Jonathan Spence on Ricci map
Author: tom Dragon 
Date:   08-26-10 10:52

the 1418 was likely from Yuan chinese world globe, which has all the features like the Hudson bay and california island. it wasn't done by the Arabs but by the Yuan chinese, who could not pronounce the S ending words, Arabs wouldn't have problem with S sounding world.
Lor Mu Er in Europe sounds like another language altogether, Mongolian?

Right below the california island, chinese words say San Bao had been to such and such places, and I just can't figure out what the places are about, can you identify them? is one of the place Peru?

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