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 Did Hakka influence spoken Korean?
Author: Neal Liang 
Date:   07-12-04 18:27

I'm a Phd Linguistics student at UT Arlington and currectly doing some research on how Korean adopted Chinese words into their writing and speaking systems during Han Dynasty. I am looking for research or evidence on the dialect that was spoken in Han Dynasty first. Once this is identify, I can attempt to compare this dialect to Korean and hopefully find some patterns on how they transfered the sound and tone into Korean. So, if anyone knows anything about this topic, please post them. Thanks!


Neal Liang

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 Re: Did Hakka influence spoken Korean?
Author: Dylan 
Date:   07-13-04 01:55

The simple answer to the question is no. If your linguistics department was competant, they should have told you no modern dialect of Chinese survives without any phonological change over the course of two millenia.

You need to have a look at Middle Chinese reconstructions such as those of Chou Fakao, Karlgren, Edwin Pulleybank and others to find the sounds of the Sui-Early Tang era, then have a look at reconstructions of Chinese sounds from times before that known as Old Chinese. The latter has more variance than MC, because the reconstructions are an extrapolation as well as guessing from literary and other sources.

Then you have to get the sounds of Chinese pronunciations of characters from Middle Korean, and that is recorded in much more later, in fact after 1444 when King Sejong publishes the beginning of Hangul script for the "correct pronunciation" in his proclamation of Hunmin Jeongeum. Note the gap between it and Han, over a thousand years. What was Korean like several centuries or a millenia before Sejong? I leave you to figure out if the Han dynasty pronunciation can survive that long without going through the mash of someone else's limited restricted phoneme set.

Dyl.

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 Re: Did Hakka influence spoken Korean?
Author: Norma Lie 
Date:   07-13-04 20:49

Iīm far from being an expert on linguistics and maybe thatīs why I donīt understand Mr Dylanīs answer. I do know that the pronunciation of Chinese ideograms in Korean does sound like hakka, although spoken Korean sounds completely different.

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 Re: Did Hakka influence spoken Korean?
Author: Dylan 
Date:   07-14-04 02:19

Norma, you're quite right. Korean pronunciations of Chinese characters differ because they have a different set of sounds (phonemes - the sounds of vowels and consonants) than Hakka.

What I'm saying is that modern Korean pronunciations of Chinese characters whilst old may have little to do with Hakka, and such a comparison is in my mind meaningless.

There are various stages of the evolution of Chinese sounds. The earliest fully comprehensive categorisation of characters according to their sounds occurs in the milestone rime dictionary called Qieyun of 601AD. This is in the Sui Dynasty, compiled by a number of scholars from northern and southern capitals of the era. It embodies the widest differentiation of rimes and initial consonats between the dialect of the scholars. This book survives, as one was found in the last century, but it comes down mainly in a later book called Guangyun which also is a rime dictionary.

The sound system of the time as embodies by such rime dictionaries is fairly well understood, and modern linguists have given each category of pronunciation, and we can write down how the sounds may have been pronounced. This system is refered to as Middle Chinese (MC).

When you delve back further, no single source as useful as Qieyun exists to fix the pronunciation of Chinese characters so everything we derive is called a reconstruction. Before MC, linguists today use a convenient name of Old Chinese (OC) to refer to the pronunciation of the early Han and pre-Qin dynasty pronunciations which also go back to the early Zhou dynasty.

These (MC and OC) are just convenient lables.

With regard to Korean pronunciation of Chinese characters, you must compare like with like. So you have to compare the estimated pronunciation at the time of borrowing. However, Korean was written in Chinese characters until 1444 onwards when a type of alphabet was invented in Korea, so how do we know how Chinese characters were pronounced in Korea centuries before that?

That is the crux of the question. How will he compare Middle Korean sounds of 1444 with modern korean sounds today, and how will he compare modern sounds to borrowings centuries ago. Since the creation of the Korean alphabet called Hangeul, a number of the letters have fallen out of use. Even the tone mark is no longer used. This is phonological change in the language.

Dyl.

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 Re: Did Hakka influence spoken Korean?
Author: Neal Liang 
Date:   07-14-04 11:34

Dylan,

Thanks for the explanation and info you provided. My background is in SLA (Second Language Acquisition), I'm doing this research for my required Non-Western language course. I'm glad that I found somebody who can answer many of my questions.

The reason that I thought there could be some relationship between Hakka and Korean is because, similar to Norma's idea, there are so many Korean words pronounced just like Hakka. For example,

Korean Hakka English
sam sam three
sib sip ten
baek bak hundred
(plus the ideograms mentioned by Norma)

These examples may be superficial but I doubt they are merely coincidences. Maybe I should rephrase my question as: what are some of, if any, the relationship between spoken Hakka and Korean? Or 'How do we explain the similarities observed between Hakka and Korean?'

Again, thank you for your info and I look forward to reading more of your input. By the way, are you in UK?

Neal

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 Re: Did Hakka influence spoken Korean?
Author: Desmond Lam 
Date:   07-14-04 20:27

Dear Neal

I am neither a linguist nor an expert in languages but I think the examples you cited are mere coincidence. The words "three", "ten", "hundred are pronounced the same tone in Thai lanaguage as well.

Rgds

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 Re: Did Hakka influence spoken Korean?
Author: Desmond Lam 
Date:   07-14-04 20:28

Dear Neal

I am neither a linguist nor an expert in languages but I think the examples you cited are mere coincidence. The words "three", "ten", "hundred are pronounced the same tone in Thai lanaguage as well.


Rgds

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 Re: Did Hakka influence spoken Korean?
Author: Norma Lie 
Date:   07-16-04 13:55

Would the existence of words, not just few, with the same pronunciation in different languages be just mere coincidence? I doubt that!

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 Re: Did Hakka influence spoken Korean?
Author: SL Lee 
Date:   07-16-04 14:37

It is quite difficult to have different languages evolve with the same sound for the same meaning unless there is some relationship or communication.

Some most astounding examples are :

There is a river in Olympia National Park, Washington state called "Hoh" which means river by the native Americans.
http://www.oncosportfishing.com/op_aboutrivers.htm

There is an American Indian tribe in Arizona called "Hopi" which in their language means 'peace'.

http://www.crystalinks.com/hopi1.html

Would Chinese language and the native American languages developed almost exactly the same sound for the same words ?

These are in fact very positive support for the Asian origin of American natives, as 'peace' and 'river' are very practical and ancient words.

Koreans and Chinese have been communicating for more than 2000 years. Today, there are Koreans living in China and vice versa. Many Korean names and Chinese names are exactly the same. Why would these two have no commonality in their languages? Not to be similar would be even more surprising.
--------------

SL Lee

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 Re: Did Hakka influence spoken Korean?
Author: FM Liew 
Date:   07-16-04 15:14

Dr.Lee,
heard that Peruvian speak words that sound like Hakka, worst of all, some of the meaning is also found to be the same..:o)

Coincidental?

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 Re: Did Hakka influence spoken Korean?
Author: SL Lee 
Date:   07-16-04 16:11

Yes, I heard about that but have not heard of the real language spoken. One interesting thing: The Peruvian natives tie knots on strings as records. This is exactly the same as the Chinese legend of Fuxi who invented many things, among them the written languages, bagua, fishing, etc. More interestingly, the Peruvians call this method of record 'quipu' . In Hakka accounting is "Buqui", the reverse of quipu. It is the same thing, meaning 'record book'.

There are a lot more interesting similarities at this site of Gavin Menzies:

http://www.1421.tv/pages/evidence/content.asp?EvidenceID=27
SL Lee

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