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 How to preserve Hakka culture?
Author: SL Lee 
Date:   12-18-02 10:43

A number of forumites feel that only speaking Hakka can preserve Hakka culture. I have a different thought. If you look at Thanksgiving and Christmas, they are already penetrating int o Hong Kong and other places. It is not an endogenous custom to Chinese. Yet, now Chinese in Hong Kong also celebrate Xmas, and even thanksgiving. In fact singing rock and roll in Cantonese and mandarin is another example. Is there something Chinese culture and Hakka culture can offer to the world that is beyond language? I think there are plenty. US is now producing the Chinese zodiac stamp every year. That is also a cultural integration. To be accepted by others, it must be of value and liked by others. In Canada, after the Hakka conference in Toronto, many Canadians are aware of what Hakka is. That is progress. Adaptation of culture is a two-way street. There are new cultures we need to absorb into Hakka culture too. How to recognize the good and the bad is the issue. Not all Hakka culture is good. I am sure you can find a lot of things we don't want our next generations to inherit.

May be we can talk about what should and should not be preserved, and then how to do it.


SL Lee

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 Re: How to preserve Hakka culture?
Author: HakkaJ 
Date:   12-31-02 10:08

In this day and age it should be quite easy to preserve it. Somebody just record a hakka voice and put it on the net, probably already done. Culture moves with the times. The only thing that can stay the same is the spoken dialect.

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 Re: How to preserve Hakka culture?
Author: roger chen 
Date:   03-16-03 16:08

But no language is static. It is constanty changing, even as we communicate now. In fact, if it does not change to reflect the society we are in, it will become irrelevant and shrivel away.

Waht we have been attempting to preserve so far are the memories or artifacts of the past Hakka culture. I myself am tring to do that; but that's not today's Hakka culture.

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 Oversea Chinatowns
Author: hohoyan888 
Date:   03-17-03 10:02

The establishment of a Chinatown is an good example of preserving Chinese culture oversea. Time after time, living overseas during Chinese New Years if there is no Chinatown in town, I seldom realize that the actual date of the Chinese New Year. That was why I propose something called "Hakka House" everywhere. It does not have to be real establishment. It can just a website virtually housing the Hakka culture from a country e.g. Colombia. We can use a central site to link all these international Hakka sites together. If there is a physical establishment for the Hakka house, then it will a big step forward, at least visitors can drop.

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 Re: How to preserve Hakka culture?
Author: John Mak 
Date:   03-18-03 02:41

Dear forumites,

We are tackling this question at grade 9 level.

All Hakka people is doomed to extinct,that include the pockets of Hakka in China and S.E. Asia. It is only a matter of times.
Dr Lee website.Yoon-Nyan books and other personalities,they are all putting
bits and pieces into a time capsule for posterities.
We are like Columbia river,we are not at the source,we are not in the middle,
we have passed Arizona, we are going to dry up in Mexico.
Many of you thinks that once a year the Hakka congress gather together for
few days,make a few speeches,,have some food,some mountain songs,a few
CD are enough to re-energize the Hakka language and culture.
It seems to me that this panel is trying to answer the question without fully understand the problem.
Let us look at the problems with sincerity:-
(a) We are spread out,in the early migrations both within China and outside
China,we were able to form communities,our insularity has protected us from assimilation,as time goes on,Maslov theory dictates, our success in economy has brought failure in culture and language,these are complementary,you cannot have all the plays in silence or music in silence.
I came from a country called Mauritius, I thought I am the worst with grade
4 Chinese in Hakka,I realize I am one of the few,many of us has married into other non Chinese communities,those who married within the communities do not understand much, they try their best to keep the culture.
(b) I do not know much about Singapore,Malaysia,and Taiwan.
Watching the news on Singapore,Lee Kwan Yew wanted only the Putonghua ,I can understand as a politician,it makes sense for unity and
economy.
(c) Hakka communities in China are facing problem as well,I believe reading
an article by either Nam Low or Sherman, under 40 prefer Cantonese than
Hakka,because Cantonese is vibrant, it is supported by strong economy.
What I suggested that we cannot save the communities that are on its way
to extinction, but we might save the ones in China.
The life line is the ECONOMY, if we create a sort of Hakka Mecca from tourism, and market theatre ,language and amusements,we probably can
have a Hakka economy for this old Chinese civilization to survive.
Now is the time to come to the rescue of something dear to our heart.
Otherwise we will become the proverbial DODO,again it is a bird of
Mauritius.

John

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 Re: How to preserve Hakka culture?
Author: desmond Lam 
Date:   03-19-03 23:01

Dear John

I acknowlege your concern abt the demise of Hakka dialect.

But I feel that your opening address of the issue is too strong. I dont think "the Hakka people is doomed to extinct" as purported by you.

Yes, it does sadden me, that the younger generation (generation Y) do not speak the dialect. However, I am optimstic abut the future of Hakka people. If you look around you, there are efforts by the local governments in China and Taiwan to keep the Hakka culture and tradition alive. One good example is the Hakka cultural centre in Mei Xian, Guangdong. This is one of the many projects the provincial govt has done for the Hakka.

Your DODO analogy on the plight of Hakkas is insulting. Hakkas are survivors, we have been around for many centuaries. In fact, we are the only Chinese people that have settled in every continent on the planet earth.

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 Start from your family, when the kids were born.
Author: wuming 
Date:   03-20-03 03:17

Dear all,

First of all, please pardon my lousy english, as english is my third language.

When this thread first appeared 3 months ago, I was eagerly waiting for the forumites to respond. Sadly to say, not very many had replied. Perhaps people has run out of idea about this issue. I could only relate this topic with personal observation, not in the scholar manner or any big dream like having the chinatown/ hakka town or hakka entrepreneurs international correlation movement. So i took up the courage to write something........

Perhaps we should look into the question in reverse manner, "How much one hakka has lost the hakka culture?" How to define hakka culture in general sense? As a chinese, I think the first impression/noticeable mark one person gives to others in order others could recognise him as hakka is the hakka spoken language. No doubt hakka culture comprises other elements as well, but how many people especially the new young generation could clearly define the other hakka values [besides hakka language]? Just list them down one by one, or even define chinese culture. The other chinese dialects groups also could have the same culture characteristics like chingming [paying respect to the death], dumplings or chinese new year, this more like COMMON CHINESE culture. To me, without knowing to speak hakka, the hakka culture has lost greatly to roughly 70% of the hakka characteristics.

The easier way to preserve the hakka language is to start teaching the kids when they were born. Provided you still have the capability to speak the language or someone around home [grandpa/grandma] to speak the language. Most of the young chinese couples in South East Asia have started the trend to speak only mandarin or english with their kids even in the infant period. Personally i think the much more a person has improved in the social state whether in the education or wealth, they tend to lost the dialects or even lost the chinese literated skills. The reason, very simple. English is the commercialised language.

My mum only studied for two years in the primary chinese school due to some harship [my grandpa [mother's father] was killed by tiger when he tapping the rubber in the rubber state], my dad studied only 6 years in chinese primary school, that's it, that was during 50s. Both of them are hakkas. Luckily we only converse in hakka in the family. My grandpa grandma [father side], aunties/uncles [both father and mother side] happened to marry a hakka spouse, all the family members conversing with each others in hakka only. No matter where we go or meet, spontaneously will converse in hakka when the family members meet. That's an unwritten NATURE basic instinct rule for our family.

The place I grew up didn't have that kind of cantonese hostile towards other dialect speakers mentioned by the forumites here. During primary school at 80s, the classmates and I spoke in mandarin, out of school time, playing around with neighbouring pals with speaking in cantonese [most of the time ] or mandarin. Back home, only speaking hakka with family members and relatives. So , the use of hakka language most of the time only confines within the family members.

I have a classmate, his parents both are teachers and chinese literated as well. They gave the reason that not to burden the kids with languages, so they sent my classmate to malay school to study. It ended up that my classmate only capable in speaking his dialect hokkien, malay and english. No doubt his english and malay language abilities is far beyond excellent. Since he only speaks the hokkian dialect and most of the chinese classmates don't speak hokkian, and our english spoken skill was not that great, so we ended up conversing among ourselves in malay language, be it in the school, or after school time. That's a kind of social oddity if chinese conversing in malay language with chinese especially privately or in the public domain. On one occasion we were having lunch in a local pizza hut. We walked in early in the morning and sat there for more than few hours chitchat in malay language. That morning there was only us in the pizza hut, no other customers. Because we chatted so loud in malay, at the end we noticed the malay waitresses there staring at us with amazement. How come two chinese speaking in malay in public domain!!!! That is an social oddity to the eyes of other in the general public view.

I relate the above story with the hakka issue. From the beginning due to the classmate incapability to speak mandarin/cantonse, we [classmates] compromised to speak in malay with him in the first place. As time goes by, we ourselves had development that kind of habit and seeing this issue with no big deal [ actually there is no big deal speaking in malay among chinese for me , just a kind of oddity]. Started from the first hakka generation who with 100 % speaking hakka ability and this capability has decreased gradually the many next generations to come, one generation by one generation. We COMPROMISE a bit one generaion after another generation. Now some may say not able to speak hakka is not the necessary factor to be recognised as hakka, at least has a hakka heart. I know some don't have the supporting environment to let them to learn the hakka, especially when they were kids, that can be excused [Provided their parents already have lost the ability to speak hakka]. But what if, WHAT IF, their parents in the first place have looked down upon the hakka language and NOT willing to teach them when their children were born. That's cannot be torelant, and no excuses will be accepted. Just as the above example, many chinese parents nowasday only speak with their kids in english and mandarin, some even only speak english. [ The above matter only confines to both parents are chinese]

I have two nieces, a-yun [5 years] and a-ying[4 years]. a-yun's father is a hokkian. a-ying's father is a hakka too. Both of their parents speak only mandarin with them. My mum looked after a-yun for sometime, during this time, a lot of time i urged my mum and dad to speak only hakka with a-yun, not with their lousy mandarin pronunciation. Luckily my parents follow my need, and most of the time [90%], they will speak hakka with a-yun. Sometimes i urged my sisters and brothers-in-law to speak with their kids in hakka/hokkian, they just ignoring and doing nothing. During the times under my mum's care, a-yun had grasped some basic hakka. But now she is staying with her parent and not with her grandma anymore. Whenever wherever a-yun speaks to me, I will only reply in hakka. When ever or wherever a-yun asks me to do her favour, I will only ask her to ask them in hakka until she asks it correctly in hakka, then i will fulfill her request. When ever wherever I heard my family talk with a-yun in mandarin, whether in the phone or whatever, I will urge them to speak in hakka with a-yun. a-yun watches the cantonese drama series, now she is picking up the cantonese, and let her learn the mandarin and english properly in the kindergarten school. With a little bit more guide during her primary school day, i believe a-yun could pick up the malay and english as well and mandarin too.

a-yun now can speak hakka without problem in daily conversation, but still lack of vocabularies, a little more persistence during her childhood, that would lead her to a life-long usage of hakka language, which cannot be bought with money. a-ying is a bit shy, luckily she is staying with her grandmum [my brother-in-law's mother], and her grandma only speaks hakka with a-ying. Even thought I seldom heard a-ying speak hakka, but i do know she listen to the hakka very well. Since a-ying seldom comes over to my place, I cannot watch over her, hopefully one day a-ying will open-up her mouth and speak in hakka, actually i even seldom hear her speaks mandarin as she is the shy and quiet type.

Sometimes i walked into the night-market stalls at the roadside, if i heard the hawkers speaking in hakka, then i will take the initiative to start the conversation in hakka, not asking for a reduced price credit, just to keep the hakka language alive. No matter where i go, if i hear the correspondants speaking in hakka, them i will start the converstion in hakka.

Come back to the question, how to preserve hakka culture, to me speaking hakka is almost comprising 70 % of the culture value. If one could speak hakka, and read the chinese, he could look up the other 30 % hakka value in the libraries. To preserve the hakka language, one has to start even during infant period. Try to maximise the usage of hakka at your daily life, especially within family, people you encounter daily, etc etc. Don't underestimate the kids abilities to pick up languages, kids could easily cope with lauguages before 12 years.

Hopefully we still could roar in loud "Ngai hei Hakka Ngin", but not "I am hakka", 100 years from now............. Let the hakka and chinese dialect grow like a kaleidoscope, not to be a monotonous society.

World Peace !

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 Re: Start from your family, when the kids were born.
Author: desmond Lam 
Date:   03-20-03 04:16

Hi Wuming

I think yr piece is very well written. I really hope to see more of your contribution in this forum.

Like you, I am also trying to keep the hakka dialect alive whatever I had the chance. Once I met this elderly couple on a bus speaking Hakka and started chatting to them. After some time, they realised that they know my parents!

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 Re: Oversea Chinatowns
Author: Martin Liu 
Date:   04-08-03 12:16

Talking about Chinatowns in Europe and America, are the most frequently used languages there in this order: Toishan, Cantonese, Hakka?

Toishan is a subset of Cantonese but is it mutually intelligible?

rdgs,
Martin

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 Re: How to preserve Hakka culture?
Author: May Lee 
Date:   04-12-03 17:01

I remember I often refused my culture, family, all of Hakka when I was young, but now I realize how beautiful my culture is.
I have an idea -- education. We have to do Sth to teach Hakka culture to our next generation. I m planning do it by simple and receptable ways to our kids.

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 Re: Oversea Chinatowns
Author: lisa c 
Date:   04-13-03 17:28

In the old Chinatowns, the primary dialect is/was Toi san, but this seems to be changing as Chinese Vietnamese and people from China have immigrated. Now it's Cantonese and Mandarin.

Toi san is not intelligible by Cantonese speakers outside of the of a few words.

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 Re: How to preserve Hakka culture?
Author: ruzin l1 
Date:   04-14-03 13:41

Very good idea.

Mr. CHUNG Yoon-Ngan can begin by listing all the cultural traits and practices of Hakka. I suggest classifying into different categories like food, celebrations, superstitutions, dialects, etc.

rzl

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 Re: How to preserve Hakka culture?
Author: David Leong 
Date:   04-27-03 03:33

I think the most important part of Hakka culture that needs to be preserved is the language. Even in India many chinese families still speak Hakka at home and this goes a long way in passing traditons and culture to the next generation. Its sad that a lot of Hakka people ,especially in the mainland and hong kong, have started speaking in cantonese and mandarin to the extent that they find the Hakka spoken here to be more authentic. A language conveys a lot about the way people think, there roots, traditions, community spirit ...etc. Hence a greater effort should be made by Hakka families around the world to speak the language at home and with the community .

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 Re: How to preserve Hakka culture?
Author: w lau 
Date:   04-28-03 19:23

I only faintly know what is hakka food, because its something my parents cook and are not offered at chinese restaurants.

can somebody list like what traditions are distinct hakka?

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 Survival of Hakka culture
Author: Martin Liu 
Date:   05-03-03 03:49

For Hakka culture to survive, we need Hakka pop music, Hakka fashion, Hakka movies and tv serials, news in mainstream society.
This is already evident in Taiwanese society.


rdgs,
Martin

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 Re: How to preserve Hakka culture?
Author: ruzin l1 
Date:   05-03-03 12:20

w lau,

Hakkas are not known for restaurants. The few that I have been to are really more Cantonese than Hakka. I can only remember Niong toufu, Humchoi mun zuniuk, Shankong(made from cow's stomach?). Please excuse my poor pinyin, I spell phonetically. Other posters probably can give you more Hakka dishes.

rzl

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 Re: How to preserve Hakka culture?
Author: ruzin l1 
Date:   05-03-03 12:35

David Leong,

It's difficult for the language to survive unless Hakkas live and work together as in the case of India I heard. Chinatowns are usually Cantonese. In Malaysia I believe there are Hakka communities and therefore easier to preserve the language. This is true too in parts of the world where Hakkas form communities. A language needs to be spoken for it to be preserved. I am yet to find a Hakka community in the U.S.

rzl

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 Re: How to preserve Hakka culture?
Author: Martin Liu 
Date:   05-03-03 13:30

Government backing is essential.

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 Re: How to preserve Hakka culture?
Author: ruzin l1 
Date:   05-05-03 08:26

Martin Liu,

Government backing will be nice but usually it winds up political. I think Hakka associations can do more by providing leadership with real estate developers to create Hakka communities. The only question is whether there are enough families interested, otherwise it could be a flop and a big loss to investors of such projects. If there is such a project in NY or NJ state, I could be interested. Any developers reading this?

rzl

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 Re: How to preserve Hakka culture?
Author: FM Liew 
Date:   05-05-03 13:35

ruzin,
something you should know.
Here in Singapore, gov't has discourage the use of dialect....and it has proven to be very successful.. The younger Singaporean speak either English( Singlish ) and mandarin( broken ).

Many don't even know the ancestral birth place...

Martin's suggestion is natural....if the gov't system can distroy our roots, it should be able to restore it back.

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 Importance of Government
Author: Martin Liu 
Date:   05-05-03 14:33

The reason I mentioned Government is that they are the only one which has the machinery to implement it across the country.

Good examples:

1. Singapore discourage use of dialects (for past 20 years). It has been immensely successful (as James had mentioned).

2. Taiwan promote use of dialects (for a few years now). It has also been quite successful. Even non-Hakkas are learning Hakka now.


rdgs,
Martin

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 To James and Martin
Author: ruzin l1 
Date:   05-05-03 14:46

It's not a problem in China/Taiwan/Singapore. How about Hakkas migrating to other countries? The Cantonese were very successful with their Chinatowns. Why can't the Hakkas do the same? Are there too few of us?

rzl

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 To Martin, Oversea Chinatowns
Author: Chris Wong 
Date:   05-12-03 14:57

Martin,

Toisan is called Sze Yap Cantonese or Siyi Cantonese. I wouldn't say it is mutually intelligible with the several types of Guangfu Cantonese. You can however understand it with due dilligence, if you understand standard Cantonese.

I have heard Hakka being spoken in some Chinese neighborhoods in the UK and in the Netherlands. I often hear it in the restaurants and in the supermarkets.

Cantonese and Hakka are found in most European cities. Toisan is rare, and is spoken mostly in US and in some Canadian Chinatowns.

I have heard Hokkien and Teochiu being spoken in France, and parts of the Netherlands, where there is a large overseas Indonesian Chinese population.

In Europe, it's Cantonese and then Hakka.

In the USA and Canada, it's Cantonese and then Toisan.

I think there will be a revival of the Hakka language. I'm not Hakka, and yet I'm trying to learn it as a hobby.

Regards,


Chris

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 Re: How to preserve Hakka culture?
Author: John Mak 
Date:   05-14-03 22:14

Dear Desmond,

I come from the land of where the Dodos were.
I analyze the Hakka situation with conviction,I am not going to mince my
words on this subject.
The Hakka in Mauritius is almost over.
The Hakka in Singapore is probably in the same situation,the government
wants a single language there,namely Putonghua.
It is a matter of times before Hakka in Meixian succomb to Cantonese and
Putonghua, it is sad to see this culture disappears.
Culture needs an economy as a generator.
Hakka is a minority everywhere in the world,as well as in China.
Minority tends to disappear in times.
This is a universal law.

John

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 Hakka still strong
Author: Martin Liu 
Date:   05-14-03 23:52

We can be more optimistic.

Agree that Hakka is on the downhill in Singapore. But this will not disappear in our generation.
There are a lot of Hakka migrants to Singapore from Malaysia.
Recently, Hakka appear on television to pass the Prevention of SARS message.
A couple of months back, a new Hakka clan assoication just opened.

Lastly, not to mention that there is a very strong revival of Hakka culture - fashion, pop music, tv serial, movies, etc in Taiwan. This can be passed on to other countries. Hakkas are also a minority in Taiwan.

If Hakka cannot survive, Cantonese cannot survive too. Many Cantonese in Singapore are not able to speak the Cantonese dialect.

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 Re: Hakka still strong
Author: CHUNG Yoon-Ngan 
Date:   05-15-03 00:27

My dear Martin,

You are 100% correct.
There are a few hundred Hakka Associations in Malaysia.
Whoever is in doubt about the survival of Hakka should go and visit
Malaysia, especially the small towns and the states of Sabah and Sarawak.
Those who live in Western countries have no idea about Hakka culture
because they hardly meet any Hakka Chinese let alone speaking Hakka
tongue. They should not compare themselves with those Hakkas living in
Malaysia, Taiwan and China. I have spent many years researching on Hakka
history and folk tales.

CHUNG Yoon-Ngan (綠ッじ)
15052003

Yoon-Ngan

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 Re: Hakka still strong subjectively
Author: John Mak 
Date:   05-15-03 01:48

Dear Yoon-Nyan,

I hope that what you are saying happened.
I for one is delighted to hear about it.
Sadly to say,many people from Hong-Kong tell me that they are Hakka,but
they cannot speak the language. I thought that I was nothing with my fifth
grade Hakka,people from Hong-Kong,Singapore,my own country Mauritius
cannot say a few words,although they have both parents Hakka.
Further I read an article ,I cannot remember which author went to Meixian,
It could be one of the following authors, Dylan,Sherman,Nam Low.
But the person is knowledgeable.
He described the situation in Meixian, only people over-40 is interested in
anything Hakka,under-40 mostly is interested things Cantonese,because
their culture is vibrant,business,song,plays,culinary are in Cantonese.
One author suggested the only way to save Hakka is to create a province
for Hakka in China.
From these writings,I draw up my conclusion,it is not because I am from
Canada.
It is true as someone in this thread put it "not in our generation".
I am not speaking about one generation,I am speaking about "Tendency"
For a culture to survive,it has to have the attributes of"religion and economic power and cohesion".
Hakka does not have them,it is heading towards extinction.

John

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 Re: Hakka still strong subjectively
Author: CHUNG Yoon-Ngan 
Date:   05-15-03 02:07

So, as Hakka Chinese we should do something.
Fortunately, SL Lee, I and many others were educated
in Chinese and English. So, as far as I am concerned I am
trying my best to write and translate Hakka culture into
English for those who are fluent in English. I have posted
three or four hundred articles on Hakka topics. I shall
continue to do so. I read Chinese but I write in English.

CHUNG Yoon-Ngan (綠ッじ)
15052003
Yoon-Ngan

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 Re: Hakka still strong subjectively
Author: Liew Shan Lee 
Date:   05-15-03 09:56

I agree with Mr Chung on the situation of Hakka language in Malaysia. It is far more different. The situation depends on which Chinese ethnic is majority in the area. For example, I give Sibu, the place that I'm staying at right now. Here, the majority Chinese are Foochows. Then it is followed, I think by Teochew and Hokkien. The indegenius majorities are Malay and Iban. Therefore, there is a mixture of different language here in Sibu. There is also a sizable Hakka population here. The Hakka here are of Kongien or Kong ngien(Sorry, I don't have Chinese education). However, since the majority local Chinese are Foochows, Hakkas here seldom talk in Hakka, but in Hokkien, Teochew and Foochow. The same is seem among the local people, namely the Malay and Iban. They too are learning too speak Chinese language (in all dialects)
However, the situation is reversed in areas like Kuching and Miri (both are in Sarawak). Since the Hakka people here are majority, other Chinese tend to learn speaking Hakka. Even the local non-Chinese are learning how to speak Hakka, and they are not of those that came from mixed family (one parent is Chinese). One of my neighbours, who is a Malay and came from the same hometown as I am also knows how to speak Hakka although both his parents are Malays. There are many examples. Here, we learn other language (except for the National Malay Language) without compulsion or force.

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 Re: Hakka still strong subjectively
Author: ruzin l1 
Date:   05-15-03 14:08

Liew Shan Lee,

You brought out the point very well. Speaking Hakka depends on having a large enough Hakka community with no restriction on the use of the language in public. In Asia there are a lot of such communities in existence. As for the rest of world, you can't find many Hakka communities so it is difficult for them to pass on the language.

rzl

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 Re: Hakka still strong
Author: John Mak 
Date:   05-16-03 02:10

Dear Martin,

I am not sure if I made myself clear.
I am not speaking about pockets of Hakka here and there.
I am speaking of trend
"If Hakka cannot survive, Cantonese cannot survive too. Many Cantonese in Singapore are not able to speak the Cantonese dialect"
Your statement is Singapore specific.
We, Hakka,do not have a home-based province like the Cantonese people,
Cantonese might not survive in Singapore,but Quangtung province is
vibrant with its 70 millions,that will ensue her Cantonese survival for years to come.

John.

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 Re: Hakka still strong subjectively
Author: FM Liew 
Date:   05-16-03 03:41

What about summer camp?

Though it won't help much, but it's better than nothing...yeah?
How active are Hakkas over the summer camp thingy?

Its worth considering.

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 Re: Hakka still strong
Author: Martin Liu 
Date:   05-17-03 02:23

When Hong Kong was returned to China in 1997, there is speculation that Cantonese will also disappeared eventually. There was an article that was posted on this here. Hong Kong is the place where Cantonese is spoken more than any other place in the world. There are evidence that Hongkongers, being very flexible people, are learning Mandarin intensively now.

About the 70 million people in Guangdong, I think 30% are Hakka speaking and another 30% are Chaozhou speaking.

rdgs,
Martin

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 Re: Hakka still strong
Author: ruzin l1 
Date:   05-17-03 09:51

Martin,

"I think 30% are Hakka speaking"

The 30% may be Hakka, but of that probably less than 5% speak Hakka. It's all Cantonese in HK.

rzl

Reply To This Message
 
 Re: Hakka still strong
Author: Martin Liu 
Date:   05-17-03 12:49

Hi ruzin,

> The 30% may be Hakka, but of that probably less than 5% speak Hakka.
> It's all Cantonese in HK.

Are you referring to Hk or Guangdong Province? I was referring to Guangdong. 30% is my guess based on the population of Hakkas.

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 Re: How to preserve Hakka culture?
Author: Penny 
Date:   05-20-03 04:48

Re the reference to Hakkas as "survivors", I am reminded of something said at the Toronto Hakka Conference. Speaking about what makes a Hakka, one of the conference speakers said that some of the characteristics of Hakka people are that "THEY ENDURE, THEY SURVIVE AND THEN THEY PROSPER."
That really impressed me as I remembered how our parents and grandparents travelled great distances, endured hardships and then prospered. Would that we all should do as well as they did, with as little education as they had!

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 Re: How to preserve Hakka culture?
Author: John Mak 
Date:   05-20-03 16:18

Hi Penny,

Re: "survivors"
"THEY ENDURE, THEY SURVIVE AND THEN THEY PROSPER."
In Toronto,you probably met a couple of Mauritian Hakka.
We all went through the chain of ENDURE,SURVIVE,PROSPER, that does not
prevent us from extinction as a culture.
Not to go further from your household,thus compare yourself from your
grandparent,you will notice a water down Hakka.
Through my 65 years,I see the evolution of my own country and some others.
The trend is towards extinction,once a year Hakka congress won't change the situation.
I hope what Yoon-Ngan wrote about Taiwan and Meixian are a turning
point,there are economics and spirituality in Hakka culture revival,not a flicker of light,before the light goes off.
To give you an example, with my fifth grade Hakka,the few Hakka people
that I met can hardly speak Hakka,except the the Indian Hakka,out of three persons that I met,all three were able to converse in Hakka,may be
the Hakka in India are isolated,therefore they can keep and protect their
culture,it is probably at a cost in integration.
There are many forces against the survival of Hakka culture.
Such as:
Hakka is minority everywhere,including China.
Putonghua takes the role what Hakka used to be during several of Chinese
revolutions.
No economic needs,except where large concentration.
Dialect is discourage for peace.
Globalization.
These are a few impediments.
My cheers go to those who say "never say die"
John

Reply To This Message
 
 Re: How to preserve Hakka culture?
Author: Martin Liu 
Date:   05-22-03 01:00

Hi John,

I don't know whether you miss my earlier post. I tried to put it out of this thread, as it is quite long, as it may 'push out' other interesting topics.

What do you think of my proposal?
http://www.asiawind.com/forums/read.php?f=1&i=4415&t=4415

I believe Hakka can survive in China because in addition to Putonghua, they can always speak another language/dialect ie Hakka.

rdgs,
Martin

Reply To This Message
 
 Re: How to preserve Hakka culture?
Author: John Mak 
Date:   05-22-03 03:34

Hi Martin,
I read your link.
You mention Taiwan and Singapore.
I am not sure what sort of Hakka culture revival is in Taiwan,as for Singapore it is a loss cause, you cannot blame the politician like Lee Kuan Yew, a Hakka.He wanted social peace and a block votes,by uniting them under Mandarin and adopting the simplified characters.
Mauritius follows the same path,but for different reasons,as the Hakka population is 2.5%.
You raise the question of lobbying the Mainland government for help to
preserve the Hakka culture.
There was the precedence of Mainland helping the minority,Hakka does not
belong to the minority,it belongs to the Han group,further I am not sure
what the Hakka Congress influence vis-a-vis the Mainland.
It worthes to try,the movers and the shakers should table a resolution
on lobbying the Mainland.
I proposed a themepark,I am not sure if there are others with the same ideas.
The reasons are : I was looking at Israel as a model.
For this project to succeed,it needs a permanent location,economical dynamism and networking.
Hakka Congress should explore this possibility.
Let us assume Meixian is chosen,things Hakka are set up,the inhabitants
can derive a livings from this area by attracting cultural tourism from around
the world, then Hakka culture will start to grow.
You mention,talk Hakka to the children, if there is no economic and cultural
needs,the children will eventually abandon it,this is what happens to the
Hakka of Meixian,the Hakka are gradually integrated into the Cantonese
society,because economically and culturally their society is more vibrant.

Delegates of Hakka Congress should start thinking of saving Hakka,
they should start walking on TWO LEGS.
Regards,
John.

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 Making Hakka a strong culture
Author: Martin Liu 
Date:   05-22-03 04:06

Hi John,

In Taiwan, Hakka culture is very strong - there are Hakka pop music, serials, movies, fashion, etc. There are also Hakka announcements in subway stations in Taipei. The aim is to make Hakka culture an important element of society.

For Singapore, I actually support the Speak Mandarin policy, one of the aims was to make Singaporeans less Westernized, as they would have end up speaking English most of the time.

I understand your idea of 'themepark' now. I am in agreement generally, but I think Hakka has not reached that stage yet. There are after all, at least 40 million speakers in the world now.

There is no worry about Cantonese, as Cantonese will eventually loses its influence, as more Hongkongers speak Putonghua. The influence has largely been due to the mass media.

Yes. It is up to the Hakka Congress to table motions to lobby the China government for it. Taiwan is a good example. But politically, it is not a good model.

And I am talking about making Hakka a strong culture, not about saving a declining culture.


rdgs,
Martin


* Interestingly, there are many enthusiastic Hakka participants in the Taiwan, China, Malaysia Hakka Forums, for reasons I do not know why. I guess this Forum may be too serious for them.

Reply To This Message
 
 Re: Making Hakka a strong culture
Author: CHUNG Yoon-Ngan 
Date:   05-22-03 04:27

Dear Martin,

It seems that I always agree with you on
the topics of Hakka. I wish you will read more
books on Hakka People so that you can write
more about them.

CHUNG Yoon-Ngan (綠ッじ)
22052003
Yoon-Ngan

Reply To This Message
 
 Re: Making Hakka a strong culture
Author: ruzin l1 
Date:   05-22-03 08:30

Martin Liu,

I like John Mak's idea of a theme park. All the more, as you said there are 40 million Hakka speakers in the world, a theme park could attract and highlight Hakka culture. Don't forget there are many dialects of Hakka, the theme park could bring them all together. What's good about it is that there's no need for the government to be involved if it doesn't want to. If such a project is started and investors are welcomed, I'd be very interested in it.

rzl

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 Re: Making Hakka a strong culture
Author: Martin Liu 
Date:   05-22-03 11:07

Hi ruzin,

Well, I think John has read the Forum widely, which show his concern for Hakka culture, but perhaps a less optimistic view. The only difference is that I chose to remain positive.

A themepark should not be the only means, but just one of many ways to uphold the Hakka culture and values.

rdgs,
Martin

Reply To This Message
 
 Re: How to preserve Hakka culture?
Author: Penny 
Date:   05-25-03 00:25

The Hakka dishes I knew in Jamaica included the "hamchoy & pork" mentioned above, chicken & mushroom (jirou mogu), pork and wood ears (zhurou muer) and stuffed fooga (kugua).
As I mentioned in another post, the chicken/mushroom and pork/wood ears are also traditional dishes here in the north-east (dongbei) of China.
Are these also known in south-east Asia?

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 Re: Survival of Hakka culture
Author: FM Liew 
Date:   05-25-03 06:13

In order for Hakka to survive, we must make a point to teach our next generation everything we knew about Hakka, especially the dialect.

We must first start with the language, then the rest.

I hate the feeling that many Hakkas are too dependant on others to do the teaching. No. This idea have to be stopped.

Hakka parents must teach his/her offspring what they knew.

Reply To This Message
 
 Re: How to preserve Hakka culture?- This is one of the items
Author: CHUNG Yoon-Ngan 
Date:   05-31-03 00:20

Hakka Folk Song (1)

How to preserve Hakka culture?
This is one of the items

佰薄ゝ癸薄

產簈羘喘簈薄竡
佰みㄆ佰ゝみ竮

產簈程簈Τゝ
簈Τゝ礚ゝ佰Θ

璶и佰簈и碞佰佰蔓癸获澳
佰腝棚癸粪佰薄ゝ癸薄

佰ぃ琌ゑ羘羆璶佰ㄓ薄竡瞏
攀ゝぃ琌阶华羆璶ㄢみ禟み

CHUNG Yoon-Ngan (綠ッじ)
310520032003
Yoon-Ngan

Reply To This Message
 
 Re: How to preserve Hakka culture?- Look at Dongguan Hakka
Author: CHUNG Yoon-Ngan 
Date:   05-31-03 00:53

How to preserve Hakka Culture?
Look at Dongguan Hakka

My ancestral village is in Feng Gang (获翠)

肈狥拆產だ[锣篕]


狥拆產だ[锣篕] ( 2002-9-29 16:35 )

沮糕紌,朝惧繟<狥拆よē迭ㄥ>1997 默毙▅
ま阶场 锣篕絪胯:

1990狥拆Τ131窾,ㄤい產κだぇせ,Τ21窾弧產杠.
だ挂ず狥玭场籔磃锭瞏ユ钞盿,縩カκだぇ
.カΤ產よēだΤ12马. ㄤい继れ繷马琌產马,
睲匪马膀セ硄︽產よē,获翠马计弧產. 拉,俄稨,独,
谅盺场弧產. 拆,,,絟,玴刁ぶ秖弧產.
ㄤい拆霉‵拉300弧產.

29092002
Yoon-Ngan

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 Re: How to preserve Hakka culture?
Author: John Mak 
Date:   06-08-03 00:22

David,

I went to see ASHOKA,an Indian film.

I was surprise to hear the couple in front of me speaking Meixian Hakka.
We strike a conversation, I learn that they come from Calcutta.
It just did not occur to me to take their address and invite them for coffee,I had a couple of friends with me.
It is a rare occasion to find someone speaking Hakka, even people from
my country,Mauritius,cannot hold a basic conversation in our ancestral language.

John

Reply To This Message
 
 Re: To Martin, Oversea Chinatowns
Author: John Mak 
Date:   06-08-03 00:32

Chris,

I am a Hakka.
Being pragmatic,I sent my daughter to Cantonese weekend school,
unfortunately it was not convenient for us.
You need one of the parent Cantonese,my wife is Dutch.
Therefore you see the problem.

Reply To This Message
 
 Re: To Martin, Oversea Chinatowns
Author: Martin Liu 
Date:   06-08-03 02:20

Wouldn't a Mandarin school be more pragmatic?

rdgs,
Martin

Reply To This Message
 
 Re: How to preserve Hakka culture?
Author: Joseph Tsang Mang Kin 
Date:   06-08-03 04:48

Hi from Mauritius
I wonder who is John Mak and why he says he is from Mauritius.
Here are the facts:
In Mauritius where I live, the majority of the Chinese ( now under 2% of the population) are Hakka.
They own 2 dailies and 1 weekly which the Chinese here read in hakka or cantonese, not in Mandarin which is taught at school.
There is a Chinatown in Port Louis where there are lots of restaurants that serve Cantonese and Hakka food.
There are a dozen clan clubs, where the elders, businessmen and pensioners spend their time playing mahjong, discussing politics, reading papers, and you can only hear them speaking hakka, which is the only language spoken once you cross the threshold. They'll serve you tea and you'll feel you are somewhere in MeiZhou.
There is a very active Hakka Association, where most of the office bearers speak little English. There are several other associations like the Yeen Foh that speaK Hakka or the Nam Soon that speaK Cantonese. Our national radio the Mauritius Broadcasting Corporation also braodcasts news and programmes in Hakka as welll as in cantonese and mandarin.
Of course, there is a problem, as elsewhere, regarding the younger generations that speak no hakka at all, but there is this welcome phenomenon of a return to Chinese culture through mandarin which is officially taught in Governement schools, but not to our satisfaction.
There are also Saturday private schools for those who want to learn hakka.
(There are problems like poor pay and lack of teachers of mandarin, etc). The achievements of present day China and her prestige in the world are giving our younger generations of Mauritian-born Chinese a big boost and pride in their attitude toward Chinese culture, mandarin and ALSO hakka.
So here, there is no question of hakka learning being alienating or divisive, on the contrary it is a by product of a seminal phenomenon which is the growing awareness of the Chinese identity which in turn looks for its roots and finds it in the mother tongue, which for us Hakkas is Hakka. Our Chinese (culture or Hanness) identity grows from our hakka (language) identity. We cannot imagine one without the other. They are linked and inseparable.
I think I should mention two great Mauritian hakkas who had vision : Late Minister Chu Moilin and Professor Edward Lim Fat who laid the foundation of our free export processing zone which is at the root of the economic success of Mauritius. This is no mean achievement. We have to pat our own backs: we are proud of our achievements. Who else is going to do this for us in our non- Chinese environment? People forget and we have to remind them. There should be no inferiority complex (no superiority complex, either). Nobody is offended and we (Hakkas, Cantonese and the very small minority of Fukienese) get along very well. So I continue to say that hakka-speaking Minister Chu and Professor Lim are great Mauritians, great Hakkas and great Chinese.

I hope these lines will shed some light on the situation of the hakka language in Mauritius. I'll gladly take them around on a hakka tour.
Joseph

Reply To This Message
 
 Re: How to preserve Hakka culture?
Author: CHUNG Yoon-Ngan 
Date:   06-08-03 05:13


Dear Joseph,

Thank you for the post.
I hope you don't mind me revealing your privacy.
You are the Minister of Culture in the Maurituis Government.
I have the newspaper cutting about you.
A Taiwanese newspaper reported your activities in your country.
Am I right?

CHUNG Yoon-Ngan (綠ッじ)
08062003

Yoon-Ngan

Reply To This Message
 
 It is an honour
Author: Martin Liu 
Date:   06-08-03 10:02

It is indeed an honour for a Minister to participate in this Forum.

John Mak is just another Hakka like most of us here, and who is concern about our culture.


rdgs,
Martin

Reply To This Message
 
 Re: How to preserve Hakka culture?
Author: ruzin l1 
Date:   06-08-03 12:35

Joseph Tsang Mang Kin,

Thank you for your information about Mauritius, particularly that the Hakkas living there are still able to maintain the Hakka dialect.

Since you stated "Of course, there is a problem, as elsewhere, regarding the younger generations that speak no hakka at all", how would Hakkas
in Mauritius be able to maintain the Hakka dealect in the future? Do Hakkas from China continue to migrate to Mauritius which would be a way for the dialect to continue to be alive in Mauritius? What immigration policies Mauritius practice in regard to Chinese applying for immigrant visas?

I think John Mak was speaking about the younger generations.

rzl

Reply To This Message
 
 Re: To James and Martin
Author: CHUNG Yoon-Ngan 
Date:   06-09-03 08:16


Dear Ruzin,

I have never heard of this phrase before
"The Cantonese were very successful with their Chinatowns"
What does it mean?
Do you mean that all the Chinatowns (Tangren jie) all over the
world belonging only to the Cantonese?

CHUNG Yoon-Ngan (綠ッじ)
09062003

Yoon-Ngan

Reply To This Message
 
 Re: To James and Martin
Author: ruzin l1 
Date:   06-09-03 09:12

Mr. Chung,

"Do you mean that all the Chinatowns (Tangren jie) all over the
world belonging only to the Cantonese?"

In my travel to Europe and the Americas, the spoken dialect of every Tangren jie that I visited was Cantonese. Only in recent years did I hear Poudonghua spoken also. As for Hakka, it seemed to be non-existent or not spoken at all. It would be great if the Hakkas can have their own communities or even a part of Tangren jie which could go a long way of preserving the dialect outside of China. In some parts of Asia, I did come across some Hakka communites and I felt great to hear everyone speaking Hakka.

rzl

Reply To This Message
 
 Re: To James and Martin
Author: CHUNG Yoon-Ngan 
Date:   06-09-03 09:39


During the Emergency my family was relocated to a Dongguan Hakka
little town called Pusing which is about 15 kilometers south of Ipoh , the capital of the state of Perak in Malaysia. Pusing became my hometown.

There is a saying in Pusing town that more than hundred per cent of the Pusing Chinese speak Hakka. Why is it so? The answer is that the few Malay and Indian families in Pusing speak Hakka too. My brother's neighbour is a third generation Indian (Tamil) family. The mother tongue of this Indian family is Dongguan Hakka Dialect. I was amazed with this family. The children went to Chinese schools.
When they talk to you in Dongguan Hakka Dialect you will never know they are Indian Tamils, just like the American Chinese speaking English.

CHUNG Yoon-Ngan (綠ッじ)
09062003

Yoon-Ngan

Reply To This Message
 
 Re: To James and Martin
Author: ruzin l1 
Date:   06-09-03 13:47

Mr. Chung,

Thank you. The next time I'm in Asia, I must stop by Pusing town in Malaysia. I am always fascinated by Chinese Malaysians of their ability to speak quite a few Chinese dialects including Hakka. But your story of the Tamil family tops them all! In HongKong, I've come across Cantonese speaking Indians.

Keep posting your stories. I enjoy reading them.

rzl

Reply To This Message
 
 Re: How to preserve Hakka culture?- This is one of the items
Author: namlow 
Date:   06-09-03 18:36

Yes. This is one of my 3 favorite Hakka items, namely Hakka ShanGe, Foods prepared out of Mei Gan Cai, and the Yellow (rice) Wine. Preserve them. Rgds, Nam Low

Reply To This Message
 
 Re: Survival of Hakka culture
Author: CK 
Date:   06-14-03 12:28

Hey Hakka friend,

It's not easy to create favourable environment if it's not on National/local agenda. Hakka is dying?

The lifespan of Hakka dialect vary from one region/country to another.
In Hakka centre like Meizhou shi, people watching TV from Hong Kong while they also speak Hakka in their daily life. Nevertheless, the impact of Cantonese is apparent as most young Hakka generation could speak the said dialect--the power of TV!

Hakka dialect however is diminishing in the New Territoires of Hong Kong where Hakka villages/settleements prevail.

It's a matter of time, locality, and people's choice etc. No one can resist the tide of change and transformation after all.

I don't know if I will continue to speak Hakka if my all closest relatives like my parents pass away one day. Modern communication requires convenient, simple and straightforward language expression. I choose the way I used to speak.

A HK Hakka

Reply To This Message
 
 Re: How to preserve Hakka culture?
Author: Don McAfoose 
Date:   06-30-03 09:20

I find the Hakka culture very interesting. My wife is from Taiwan and her mother, who recently passed on, spoke Hakka. She was a wonderful person who I miss dearly. I guess because I have a Masters Degree in International Relations from Webster Univesity, St. Louis, Mo., I am more interested than most people. The primary reason I am writing is to inform you, if you do not already know, that tomorrow, July 1, 2003, a 24 hour Hakka television station will commence in Taiwan. I read the Taipei Times on line daily and became interested in who the Hakka were and amazed to find they are keeping their culture and language alive in Taiwan. My wife did not recognize the word Hakka until she saw the Chinese characters displayed on my computer. In any event I thought I would let you know about the TV station since it directly relates to your article.

Regards,

Don McAfoose

Reply To This Message
 
 Re: How to preserve Hakka culture?
Author: ruzin l1 
Date:   06-30-03 09:33

Don McAfoose,

Thank you for letting us know about the Hakka TV program in Taipei on 7/1. Unfortunately, I can't watch the program where I am in the States. But it's good to know that there is a revival of Hakka in Taiwan. Every little bit helps.

rzl

Reply To This Message
 
 Re: How to preserve Hakka culture?
Author: Desmond Lam 
Date:   06-30-03 23:46

I heard about this intention to set up a Hakka TV station during the last Hakka Conference in Singapore many years back. Quite excited about the whole affair. cant wait to see the programs!

Thumbs up to those people who make it possible !! Hope the ratings are good.

Don, pls provide more info if possible. Thks in advance.

Reply To This Message
 
 Re: How to preserve Hakka culture?
Author: James Liew 
Date:   07-01-03 02:33

Desmond,
you'll probably have to wait longer.

In hokkien, it's called "Tan Gu Gu". (c:
" Wait long long".

Reply To This Message
 
 Re: To Martin, Oversea Chinatowns
Author: John Mak 
Date:   07-01-03 03:16

Martin,
You are right.
When I sent my daughter to the Cantonese school ,they were hardly any Mainland Chinese in Edmonton. I wanted my daughter to join the Chinese social club, the HK Hakka people mostly speak Cantonese.Even now I find the Hakkas from HK cannot speak Hakka,except the Hakkas from India.

john

Reply To This Message
 
 Re: Making Hakka a strong culture
Author: John Mak 
Date:   07-01-03 03:30

Martin,

You are right,
I am not suggesting theme park is the only solution.
But
I AM SPEAKING ABOUT A SOLUTION BASED ON ECONOMY.
WE HAVE A CRITICAL MASS,IF WE GIVE A LIVING TO THE PEOPLE OF BEING
HAKKA,PEOPLE WILL FLOCK TO IT,AND MAKE IT A SUCCESS.

SELL and MARKET HAKKA !!!!!!!!

Reply To This Message
 
 Re: Making Hakka a strong culture
Author: James Liew 
Date:   07-01-03 04:39

Already people are viewing as being Chauvinistic.

You are damned if you do, you are damned if you don't.

Reply To This Message
 
 Re: Making Hakka a strong culture
Author: John Mak 
Date:   07-01-03 16:25

James,

I see your point.
There will always people see us as a chauvinistic group.
You and many of us know,we are fighting for our survival,if we say we are giving up just like the people living in the vicinity of HK,they are
going to be Cantonese in future.Cantonese is a strong culture,it does need
protection,as far as Chauvinism is concern,they too see us as peasants,as
far as we do not resort to communal war.
Mind you,nothing is wrong about it, like many of us has joined the Malays,
Indonesians,Anglo-Saxons and so on.
If we just talk about the survival of the culture,then we may as well forget
it, it is only a matter of time before our culture disappears from this planet.
Martin thinks that I am pessimistic.Just look around the world,if the octopus
keeps losing its leg,it will not have legs to lose at some points in time.
Again I want to make it clear,not in our life time.

john

Reply To This Message
 
 Re: Making Hakka a strong culture
Author: Dylan Sung 
Date:   07-01-03 17:06

There is still a strong Hakka speaking populous in the areas which have been Hakka for the last few hundred years in HK. These are mainly concentrated in the rural nothern territories of the special administrative region. You can hear Hakka being spoken from Yuen Long to Shatin and from Tsuen Wan to Shataukok.

There's still life in the language and culture yet.

Dyl.

Reply To This Message
 
 Re: How to preserve Hakka culture?
Author: nam low 
Date:   07-01-03 18:57

Have we all forgotten about the Internet Webcast?

This 24 hr Hakka TV station broadcast can easily add an Internet Webcast so that we all can view it globally or there is one already I did not know about it.

Rgds, Nam Low

Reply To This Message
 
 Octopus
Author: Meta-4 
Date:   07-02-03 03:25

> world,if the octopus
> keeps losing its leg,it will not have legs to lose at some
> points in time. Again I want to make it clear,not in our life time.

Bad choice of metaphor...unless you are refering to a dead octopus.

An octopus is capable of limb regeneration as long as it is alive .

Meta-4

Reply To This Message
 
 Re: Making Hakka a strong culture
Author: FM Liew 
Date:   07-02-03 03:45

John,
it is very true to say that the cultural thingy will eventually evaporate. But we must work against time and do outmost we can to preserve our dying culture.

I will pitch in my whatever to teach the next generation. Make an attempt to speak the language as and when possible. Atleast I've done my part as a Hakka....this is what I believe....and I'm answerable to all my ancestors.

Because I always believe that the spoken language can affect a person's cognitive level and ability.

I'm proud to say that that both my daughters( age 5 and 7 ) can converse rather well with my dad in Hakka. It's not an easy task to teach Singapore kids to learn to speak a dying language. Hardly hear anyone speak the language, and especially when the S'pore gov't strongly discourage dilect to be spoken.

When come to think of it, I'm like commiting a treason to my country. But who am I. Just a fish in the ocean.

Reply To This Message
 
 Re: To James and Martin
Author: Bun Sak Sen 
Date:   07-02-03 12:32

Have you ever gone to Indonesia? If you did, you would see how hakka chinese dominant the culture overthere. Everyone speaks hakka included the local people in Singkawang.

Reply To This Message
 
 Re: To Martin, Oversea Chinatowns
Author: Bun Sak Sen 
Date:   07-02-03 12:34

if you are hakka and you don't know how to speak hakka then do not say you are hakka OK!

============

Moderator: This is not the correct attitude to exclude Hakka who by their background and no fault of their own have lost the ability to speak the tongue. Please see earlier discussion.

Reply To This Message
 
 Re: To Martin, Oversea Chinatowns
Author: John Mak 
Date:   07-05-03 02:21

Bun,

I am not sure that you understand what I wrote.
If you re-read it you will find out that I am not speaking about myself.

Reply To This Message
 
 Re: Octopus
Author: John Mak 
Date:   07-05-03 02:33

Thanks for the correction.

I was wandering after I wrote it. I picked it up somewhere,
but I am not really sure where.

john

Reply To This Message
 
 Re: Making Hakka a strong culture
Author: John Mak 
Date:   07-05-03 03:16

James,

I spoke to some IKEA trainee managers from Beijing in Edmonton.
They told me that Hakka(Kejia) language is an ancient Chinese language.
If it is an ancient Chinese language,then every Chinese should protect it,
not only the Hakka.
You are doing your bit at home.
I am doing my bit with my Hakka compatriots who do not speak that well.

I still hope that the mover and the shaker should have A MISSION STATEMENT and A PROJECT TO REVITALIZE HAKKA LANGUAGE and CULTURE
at the next Hakka Congress.
Create a centre.
Establish commercial means to sustain it, such as theme park,vacation site,university,central library,hospitality,culinary schools and so on.
Networking thru volunteers globally.
Asiawind can provide a commercial media globally.

From that heart,the blood will start to circulate and the tissue will revive
hopefully.

john

Reply To This Message
 
 Re: Making Hakka a strong culture
Author: John Mak 
Date:   07-05-03 03:26

Thanks for the info.

They can still keep the language and culture,because they are isolated.
Once their areas are opened up,these pockets of Hakka will disappear.
The speed with which China is linking those isolated places,it wont be long
for them to come from isolation.

john

Reply To This Message
 
 Re: To James and Martin
Author: leesl 
Date:   07-05-03 08:30

Where is Singkawang?

Reply To This Message
 
 Re: Making Hakka a strong culture
Author: Dylan Sung 
Date:   07-05-03 09:09

One would like to hope that rural areas are safe from urbanisation, but as you say, eventually there will be encroachment then an overtaking of agricultural land into a paved and tarmaced metropolis.

Over the last decade, I have more or less been to HK every year, and with each year, one see new high rise buildings in the new territories. In rural Hongkong today, farming has been reduced to a fraction of what it was in the seventies and before. Sad, but its true, and it isn't just restricted to Hakka areas. However, one saving grace is that Hakka areas are pretty remote, mainly mountainous regions and coastal inlets. My own village opposite Shataukok on the north east of HK-SAR has no roads that leads to it, other than a trekking trail. Every weekend, folks will walk over the mountains to see rural areas and enjoy the scenery.

I've heard recently that such areas as my village will be granted a nature reserve status, further protecting it from development. Maybe this will halt the urbanisation, but it won't stop the folks wanting to live nearer to every day services and centres of entertainment. The rural ares is the heartland and when they all go back, the familiar Hakka sounds ring out.

Dyl.

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 Re: Making Hakka a strong culture
Author: Penny Chung/Zhang 
Date:   07-06-03 10:43

James, as a Hakka who doesn't speak the language, I agree with you that some effort could and should be made to preserve the language and culture. An earlier post decried the use of a theme park but isn't that basically what the Chinese central government is now doing with the various minority groups in China?

These groups, e.g. Dai, dress in their special costumes, speak their language, sing, dance and perform for tourists. Maybe some people will think that is not good (performing for tourists) but their culture and language are being revived and preserved and their villages earn income.

Which is better? To perform for visitors and preserve the language and culture or lose it all?

Penny

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 Re: Making Hakka a strong culture
Author: FM Liew 
Date:   07-06-03 11:42

Penny,
I would agreed with what you said in a certain degree.

In the first place, Hakka is not a minority group. There are millions of Hakkas all over the world can still converse in Hakka.

Its just that many have started to distant the language and culture practises.....Maybe lack in economic means?

We can find all ways to preserve the language.....best by using a recorder. But, is this how the Hakka language should end up?

The best approach is to teach your children. Pass down to the next generation. My grandpa never expect my dad to pass down the language to me. It's a natural thing to do; as a Chinese and a Hakka.

Reply To This Message
 
 Re: Making Hakka a strong culture
Author: Desmond Lam 
Date:   07-06-03 23:13

Hi James

your effort to teach your kids to speak Hakka is really commendable. It may be a small step on your part but it is definitely a giant step towards preserving our culture.

I wish to appeal to the forumites (parents) here to do the same. It is better late than never.

Rgds

Reply To This Message
 
 Re: Making Hakka a strong culture
Author: FM Liew 
Date:   07-07-03 02:37

Exactly Desmond.
It's a natural thing to do as a Hakka parent; to teach the next generation about our roots and the language.

I won't say it's commendable, simply because it's a natural thing for a parent to pass it down to the next gen'.

I really hope all Hakka parent will make an effort to pass the language down to their offspring, which I think is more effective.

We have been talking about ways to preserve the identity. Yet little was touch on what Hakka parents should do.....

Reply To This Message
 
 Re: How to preserve Hakka culture?
Author: w lau 
Date:   07-23-03 00:35

I recently went back to South America ( of all places ), and ate something I remembered eating during my childhood. It's called "pa ap" (?crawling duck?) where they stuff some duck with mushrooms, roast pork ( char siu ) etc. and then slow cook it . Is that a Hakka dish also ? it'd be nice if they had it here :-(

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 Re: How to preserve Hakka culture?
Author: FM Liew 
Date:   07-23-03 05:26

nam low,
though the idea is good...but when it come to technology, many people will face difficulties in dealing with it.

Who are the audiance technology is addressing to?

Why not make it a point to speak the language at home?
Why not make a point to teach the next generation about the heritage?
Why wait for others to solve your problem when you can actually solve it on your own?

It's not really a hard task to acheive at all....you've only to make the first step.

Reply To This Message
 
 Re: How to preserve Hakka culture?
Author: John Mak 
Date:   08-13-03 13:28

James,
Your advice is good.
In practice it is not easy, all customs and languages are transmitted by
women at home.
If you are someone like me with a Dutch wife, she could not even transmit
her language to our children,then you need the community,if your community is multicultural, the communication has to be thru the medium
of English.
I sent my daughter to the Cantonese school,if she cannot learn Hakka,at
least she learn another Chinese language and our common Han culture.
I would like her to learn Hakka, even the Hakka people in our city does not speak Hakka,they converse in Cantonese.
I am glad to hear Don about the Hakka of Taiwan,may be many of the same happen around the world,because I was a pessimist if you read
my previous post, and also if those Hakka cells can link together to
invigorate an old Chinese culture.
It will be GREAT!!

John

Reply To This Message
 
 Re: How to preserve Hakka culture?
Author: FM Liew 
Date:   08-13-03 14:12

John,
Speaking of which, you may be interested in visiting this web sites,
Listen to something which you dearly missed and are familiar with:-

客家話

http://www.nihaotw.com/kejia/index.asp 中央人民廣播電臺客家網上頻道

http://www.nihaotw.com/kejia/kjyp.asp 中央人民廣播電臺客家頻道在線聽

http://big5.cri.com.cn/radio4u/hakka.html 中國國際廣播電臺客家話

http://online.cri.com.cn/radio4u/hakka.html [点开左侧星期一,二,三....即可听]

<http://www.cbs.org.tw/realaudio/temp/real/real.asp?
time1=8&time2=9&week1=10&file=k1.ram> 中广客家节目网路广播区方言节目之客家A套

<http://www.cbs.org.tw/realaudio/ ... eek1=10&file=k2.ram>
中广客家节目网路广播区方言节目之客家B套

http://betelnut.org/Hak-fa/hok-hak-fa.html 大家都来学习客家话(最近打不开了)

http://home.kimo.com.tw/hakkangin/frame.htm 客家人语言学习中心

http://www.bcc.com.tw/all_net/hakka/index2.htm 中广客家广播频道

http://www.south.nsysu.edu.tw/group/NTUHakka/hdict/hdict.htm线上客家有声字典

http://i-am.org/hakka1.ram 客家話基督教廣播
http://www.ktwr.net/cgi-bin/Air.cgi?l=B&o=Y#Haka 環球電台客家話

http://www.south.nsysu.edu.tw/group/NTUHakka/tungsong/main.htm有聲客家童謠

http://www.864.com.tw/radio_hakka.php 天天客家話101講[台灣四縣口音,接近大陸蕉嶺]

http://www.ihakka.net/htm/ihakka/talk/everyday.htm 天天客家話

http://www.ktps.tp.edu.tw/hakka/language.htm 客家生活會話

http://www.ktps.tp.edu.tw/hakka/adage.htm 客家諺語在線聽

http://www.haga.ks.edu.tw/1/index2.htm 客家話教材在線學習[高雄]

http://edu.ocac.gov.tw/language/hakka/b/b3.htm 客家話課文練習

http://www.chiculture.net/0604/html/d15/0604d15.htm 客家話词語點播

http://www.hakkaonline.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=2914 歌谣 月光光 收听

http://www.pts.org.tw/php/html/smile/main.php [薇笑講客語] 節目可以看到影像和聲音:
1. 先點 [集數] Go 2. 再點 [影音教學] 就可以看到美麗的徐薇老師教你講客家話囉!

<mms://202.71.100.83/LiveRadio5> 馬來西亞政府电台早上十时的客家话新闻

http://www.rtm.net.my/R5Streaming/R5Streaming.htm

http://wanita.net/radio5/time_table.asp节目时间表 10:00 客语新闻

http://www.south.nsysu.edu.tw/group/NTUHakka/story/main.htm 客家故事

http://www.cbs.org.tw/big5/activities/hakka/index.asp 中广客家录音新闻

http://www.hakkaonline.com/forum/thread.php?tid=4084 [ 來去客家庄 ] 影片欣賞

http://www.hakkaonline.com/forum/thread.php?tid=4410 刘平芳主持的学习客家童谣节目

Enjoy. (o;

Reply To This Message
 
 Re: How to preserve Hakka culture?
Author: Desmond Lam 
Date:   08-14-03 05:20

Hi James

Thanks for the address to these sites. I dare say that alot of time and effort has been put in by our Hakka counterparts to ensure that the Hakka language, culture & custom live on.

I hope Mr John Mak will make good use of it.

rgds

Reply To This Message
 
 Re: How to preserve Hakka culture?
Author: FM Liew 
Date:   08-14-03 07:38

You are welcome mate...you are welcome. (o:

Reply To This Message
 
 Re: How to preserve Hakka culture?
Author: Philip Lam 
Date:   08-15-03 02:30


I read with interest the many suggestions put forward to preserve Hakka culture. Even tho i have a Chinese wife. my children don't speak Hakka. Here, literally mother tongue comes into play. My wife speaks Hokkien following her mother even tho her father was Foochow. Now our children all speak Hokkien and Mandarin. Hakka is definitely missing!! I believe making one's intention known to your partner prior to the marriage is important; meaning to say coming to an agreement what dialect be spoken should there be offsprings. I know of a friend who's married to a Cantonese but their children are speaking Hakka and Mandarin.

Reply To This Message
 
 Re: How to preserve Hakka culture?
Author: FM Liew 
Date:   08-15-03 04:39

Thanks for sharing Philip.
My wife is a Hockien, she can speaks Hakka.
I trained her prior to starting a family....actually prior to marrying her.

My kids speak Hakka, not entirely due to my wife's ability to speak the tongue.

My da is a great influence on his grandchildren.
He only speaks Hakka to them.......and nothing else....he would pretend not to understand the grandchildren if they speak other language to him.

My wife hardly speak Hockien to the children. She speaks English to them.

My mother will use Mandarin on her grandchildren.

And me, I use any of the three languages on them.....but I make a point to tell my children bed time stories in Hakka.....and they loved it.

Stimulate their interest on the language.

Reply To This Message
 
 Re: How to preserve Hakka culture?
Author: CK 
Date:   08-15-03 12:17

橺擵幐(曣岅), 晝擵夁! 搒惀橍恖晝曣揑嶖! 煋桳<壠嫵>, 娨択恟涻曐懚媞壠暥壔!

I don't know if you agree or not, in the old days, Hakka parents used to place much emphasis on family education. They don't want their children to be uneducated or uncivilized. They feel shamed when people labled their children as "柍壠嫵" (no family education, know nothing about rules and rites). Consequently, most Hakka parents tried their utmost to teach their children well, sent their children to school even if the family conidtion was so poor. Customs and rites as part of culture was therefore inherited and continued to grow.

Now, think about what we have done to our culture?

Reply To This Message
 
 Re: How to preserve Hakka culture?
Author: Philip Lam 
Date:   08-18-03 03:45

Hi James & CK,

James, it's nice to hear that your kids are speaking Hakka. You really must have put an effort in doing that. And with your parents esp. your father around, that really helps a lot. My problem is that i have no Hakka speaking relatives around. Right now, our helper who is a distant relative of my wife, speaks Hokkien to the children. But then when i reflect on this, it is really a very poor excuse. The truth is i'm not very "conversant" in Hakka. Surprise? As CK was sharing, our parents way back then were very concerned about our education. Mine was no different. I was sent to a Mission school where English was the medium of instruction. Right now i feel more comfortable speaking in English! I guess it's too late to teach my children Hakka (they laughed when i speak to them in Hakka and they asked in Hokkien:"Lu kong ha mit?"). Coming to think of it, our parents are a very strong influence in deciding and determining the dialect our children speak. I never have that previledge.

Reply To This Message
 
 Re: To James and Martin
Author: Derek 
Date:   08-25-03 19:18

<<Why can't the Hakkas do the same? Are there too few of us?>>
I think so. Too few and too few young, well educated Hakkas around. For example, I can't find a single Hakka friend who can speak Hakka here in San Francisco. I know some people feel ashamed speaking in Hakka--that's really too bad.

-- Derek

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 Re: To James and Martin
Author: Desmond Lam 
Date:   08-25-03 22:04

Hi Derek

I know how you feel...you are not alone.

The lost in the root of a person is part & parcel of cultural assimiliation esp when you are the minority in your land. Many people, wanting to be with the mass, give up a part of their heritage and even identity. A lot of American and Canadian Chinese feel ashamed of being Chinese, let alone speaking the language and dialect.

Lucy Liu was quoted that when she was younger, she hated herself for being a Chinese. When she was much older, she realised that only by accepting who she really is, then she can be a complete person.

Rgds

Reply To This Message
 
 Re: To leesl
Author: gerry 
Date:   08-26-03 00:31

singkawang is small town, west kalimantan/borneo province. indonesia.
in west kalimantan, hakka is +/- 80% from chinese population
in indonesia, hakka is +/- 60% from chinese population.

regards,
gerry

Reply To This Message
 
 Re: Making Hakka a strong culture
Author: @GBS 
Date:   08-28-03 23:21

As long as Chen Shui-bien is the President of Taiwan, he's going to keep Hakka culture minimized. Listening to his Taiwanese speeches and his promotion of the "Taiwanese" part of Taiwan, he's one of the biggest threats to the development of Hakka and Hakka respect on the island, unfortunately. While there may be many trite nods to Hakka culture, this is more an appeasement of the Hakka voting public than a true call for cultural diversity and respect.

It is an affront to the Hakka within Taiwan to have to listen to Chen speak Taiwanese, which is part of the reason why Mayor Ma was in a previously legitimate (and threatening) position to run in the upcoming Presidentials.

Talk to me about Taiwanese politics.

Reply To This Message
 
 Re: How to preserve Hakka culture?
Author: Thomas Ng 
Date:   10-16-03 01:23

It's all depend on the environment you live in, If you're like me grow up in a Hakka village, then Hakka language will automatically be the first spoken language.

But this kind of Hakka settlement is just too few to preserve the Hakka culture as a whole...

Reply To This Message
 
 Re: How to preserve Hakka culture?
Author: FM Liew 
Date:   10-16-03 02:37

Thomas,
you got a point. Things survive because of its usefulness.
Language survive because of its economic benefits.

The world is getting smaller and smaller because of advance technology. Spoken languages will eventually will be minimised...and left with those that are still benefiting.

Reply To This Message
 
 Re: How to preserve Hakka culture?
Author: Thomas Ng 
Date:   10-16-03 03:42

Liew,

True, I'm from a little town call Changlun in Northen Malaysia, near Thai border, this town consists of 80% Hakka, and it is interesting to see how the Hakka had Influence the live of the others 20% of Fujian, Hainan minority.

Language do survive because of its economic benefits, you are force to adopt Hakka language if you wanna survive here.

This also the same reason that threatening Hakka survival out of the Hakka village.

Reply To This Message
 
 Re: How to preserve Hakka culture?
Author: CHUNG Yoon-Ngan 
Date:   10-16-03 04:46

I had been to Changlun.I think the North and South Highway has bypassed your town.

Do you know Kaki Bukit in Perlis, the tin mining town? The residents of this little town are almost 100% Dongguan Hakkas and they are the offspring from my hometown Pusing, in Perak state. From Pusing they relocated there in the 1920s and 1930s when tin was discovered in the cave where it is ringed by hills. I had been to the mining site several times. Now the area has been converted into a holiday resort since the collapse of the tin industry. Last time I went there was a few years ago. I was on my way to southern Thailand to see the villages of the re-settled former guerrilla fighters. But I could not make it. There are a few former fighters from my hometown, Pusing. My younger brother met them and they told him many stories about how they survived decades of guerrilla war.

CHUNG Yoon-Ngan
16102003.
Yoon-Ngan

Reply To This Message
 
 Singkawang Hakka same Hopohs family?
Author: Huang jun liang 
Date:   09-17-04 09:17

who can talk me... singkawang hakka people's speak is same the hopohs language from malaysia hakka people?

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 Re: How to preserve Hakka culture?
Author: Lian Hoa, Tjoa 
Date:   09-19-04 10:53

Dear Friends,
I am a new comer in this forum.
I am Chinese, born and bred in Indonesia. I have very limited knowledge about the Chinese culture.
I would appreciate anyone wanting to help me knkw more about the Chinese especially the Hakka culture.
You might need to brief me what Hakka is and who is considered as the Hakka?

Thanking you so much,
Lian Hoa, Tjoa

Since the eyar 1967 we the Chinese were asked to change our Chinese name into Indonesian name and were no longer allowed to use any Chinese symbols. My Indonesia name is Meidy Maringka.

Reply To This Message
 
 Re: How to preserve Hakka culture?
Author: FM Liew 
Date:   09-19-04 12:41

Welcome aboard..:o)
Maybe you can start to understand the meaning of Hakka, and a bit about Chinese History at this wed page:
http://www.asiawind.com/hakka/

Reply To This Message
 
 Re: How to preserve Hakka culture?
Author: Samuel Ho 
Date:   09-25-04 07:06

How do you tell a particular practice in a Hakka family, clan, or village is atypical culture of the Hakkas? How can you tell a Hakka apart from other Chinese by physical appearance? How can you identify or single out a Hakka from a gathering of Chinese?

Many Hakkas outside China do not speak much of the Hakka dialect. Increasingly children of Hakkas speak the mother tongue if their mothers happen to be other than Hakkas or speak the language of the land of their birth, i.e. English if they so happen to be in England, Australia, or North America. Hongkong Hakkas speak Cantonese just as much as Malaysian and Singaporean Hakka children are increasingly speaking putonghua (Mandarin) not just on the streets but in their homes. How then do you preserve Hakka culture? Participate in Hakka activities organizaed by Hakka cultural associations? What are the elements of Hakka culture?

Let me tell you. One of the greatest lost of Hakka cultural practices is in the funeral rites. If one has a chance to attend a funeral of the passing of an old Hakka, it is a great privilege to gather with other Hakkas and to see the many observances are practices. Unfortunately such publicly communal funneral practices are not permitted in Western countries. The practices and observances in the homes are now very personal and bland.

Reply To This Message
 
 What are the funeral practices?
Author: Megan 
Date:   09-26-04 01:11

What are Hakka funeral practices like?

Reply To This Message
 
 What's the difference between Chinese culture and Hakka culture?
Author: Samuel Ho 
Date:   09-26-04 06:02

SL,

In your statement "Is there something Chinese culture and Hakka culture ...", tell me, not semantically, what is the characteristic difference between Chinese culture and Hakka culture? Certainly not "English people read, write and speak English, Chinese people read, write and speak Chinese, and Hakka people read, write and speak Hakka." That's Hakkaology!

I wonder too how people understand by the suffix "-ology". If it's logic and Hak in Hakka means frighten, what does that make of Hakkaology. That will make another "kiangngin tungtien" Taiping Revolution.

Sam

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 Re: What are the funeral practices?
Author: Samuel Ho 
Date:   09-26-04 07:13

Come and see me, and I will tell you.

Alternately, you can attend some Chinese funerals or Qinming ancestor worship, whatever type they maybe. Be observant, ask for explanations for what you see. Or watch some movies, read some books, look at some pictures, ask the W5 questions. You need to have some familiarity with the Chinese religious-philosophies and local shamanism to help you better understand.

Chinese funerals comes with a lot of tradition, practices, observances, some dating back some 3-4,000 years, e.g. the offerings and sacrifices, the wearing of jute. There is a lot of tradition - Confucianism, Daoism, Buddhism, shamanism, and even Christianity thrown into it.

Much of this tradition is lost in especially China to follow the reckless destruction from the Cultural Revolution and also the switch to cremation. Much is also lost and changed as a consequence of congestion in urban centers such as in Hongkong and Singapore. Much is also lost and changed from cultural adulteration and prohibitions in foreign land.

Only in some remote villages perhaps in Malaysia can you see the full display of the funeral rites and ancestor worship.

Keep talking and you will learn.

Reply To This Message
 
 Re: What's the difference between Chinese culture and Hakka culture?
Author: SL Lee 
Date:   09-26-04 07:14

I would define Hakka culture as a subset of Chinese culture, and mostly Han culture. Chinese culture would include Tibetan, Uighur, Yi, Bai,.... more than 50 ethnicities. There are unique characteristics of each of these ethnicities. The reason Hakka is interesting for some scholars to focus in even as a special topic called Hakkaology is because much of its origin and history remains a mystery. Hakkas inhabit mostly in the south, yet many possess northern physical features, and their customs are also found in northern China. If we trace the spoken language of Hakka, a lot of wrods have no written form and some only found in ancient texts. The same is true for Cantonese and Fujianese. To understand the historical development of Chinese culture, one really has to know something about these "southern" people.

During the transition of West Jin to East Jin, it is said that 70% of the people (with defined family registration, probably of some social status) moved from the north to south of Yellow River to Yangzi River area. This undoubtedly has significant impact on the constituents of Chinese culture.

How these early migrations caused the integration of Chinese culture through conflicts and reconciliation would be an important lesson not only for the Chinese people but for the world too. That is the reason I that the lesson is important for all.

I have more interest on the process of how Hakka interact with the rest of the people in history. This is a social model for the survival of a culture and integration into another.
--------------

SL Lee

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 Re: What's the difference between Chinese culture and Hakka culture?
Author: Samuel Ho 
Date:   09-26-04 07:19

What are the northen physical features that Hakkas possess?

Reply To This Message
 
 Re: What's the difference between Chinese culture and Hakka culture?
Author: Samuel Ho 
Date:   09-26-04 07:39

Bear in mind that the Cantonese and Fujianese respectively their roots in the Yueh and Min people. The two ethnic groups you can easily distinguish and tell them apart from the Han which is historically a melting pot for the many ethnicities from the four corners into the center.

Respectfully, you try to draw the uniqueness of Hakka out of the Han, just as much as seeing the Tibetans, Uyghurs, Zhuangs, etc. are a minority nationality and just as much as a new book I come across by Brown attempting to answer the question "Is Taiwan China?" How do you ensure that effort does not drive a motive to make the Hakkas a national minority with separatist or rebellious tendencies? Do you see elements of chauvinism among the Taiwanese Hakkas not only drawing themselves apart to identify themselves as Chinese and to show solidarity with other Hakkas in China and other Hakkas elsewhere outside China?

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 Re: What's the difference between Chinese culture and Hakka culture?
Author: SL Lee 
Date:   09-26-04 08:33

Samuel,

If you have not visited the Hakka homepage referenced, please do so before this discussion becomes too redundant. Thanks.

http://www.asiawind.com/hakka
--------------

SL Lee

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 Re: What's the difference between Chinese culture and Hakka culture?
Author: Samuel Ho 
Date:   09-26-04 10:28

Come on! Fear not redundancy. The Hakka says "Faliung chuhe oifa kiuk. Mo kiuk, puse liung".

Point out the physical differences for all to see. This is the place for challenge and debate that others too can join in.

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 Re: How to preserve Hakka culture?
Author: A Hakka 
Date:   09-27-04 21:19

Hello all,

I just came back from a visit to Moiyan. The Hakkas living there told me: don't worry young fellow, as long as Moiyan exists, the Hakka language will last forever.

A Hakka

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